SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Lange, are there nice Nazis?
Lange: Of course, Nazis can be normal people. Nazis are not only Nazis, but also mothers or fathers, brothers or sisters, work colleagues or work colleagues.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: ... with a despicable worldview.
Lange: I differentiate between the political attitude that I reject and the personality of a person. As people, Nazis have a right to support if they want to change.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: There are also many other people who need help - the victims of right-wing violence, for example. Why are you helping Nazis?
Lange: I also help the affected person on a structural level. Who leaves the right scene with my help, usually produces no further victims. And on an individual level, I just support people - because I believe everyone deserves a second chance. Also a neo-Nazi.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Can not one also combat right-wing extremism by refusing neo-Nazis without compromise and, if possible, holding it outside in all areas of life?
Lange: Yes, we often hear such criticism. She is legitimate, too. I understand my work as an aid to my clients to change themselves. I accept neither the political attitude of these people, nor that they commit crimes. Instead, I do something about it: democratic culture.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What helps democratic culture when I encounter an aggressive neo-Nazi during a demo? The idea does not help that this right-wing extremist also has family, friends and colleagues.
Lange: It does not have to be understandable for every Nazi. But for those who really want to change, as a society, we should give them a sincere second chance. For example, anyone who has anything to do with Nazis at school would advise me to do two things: show unequivocally that you disagree - and try to separate that from the person who is facing you.
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SPIEGEL ONLINE: So you should accept a person whose world view disgusted, terrified, scared. How should this succeed?
Lange: It's difficult, but it works. As a teacher and not as a private person, I have to talk to people who are in such a world of thought. But I would never make that public and thus offer Nazis a stage.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What do you mean?
Lange: That means, for example, not to ignore the racist joke of a relative at a family party, but to make it clear to him in a one-on-one interview: that was not alright. In plenary, it would only provoke a major quarrel, which can provoke a refusal attitude, while one can develop a basis of trust in a one-to-one interview. That's also how my task as an exit advisor works.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: With the difference that your clients are not relatives. How do you find each other?
Lange: Some are taught to us, for example, by educators, teachers or siblings. Many are self-reporting because they are in a difficult situation and need help. Most people bring along one thing in the beginning: fear.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What?
Lange: Before repression from the scene, in front of old comrades. Many fear that their exit will be publicized.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What can you offer in such cases?
Lange: That we do not talk to anybody about specific cases, that in no case personal data leak out, that we do not work with any security agencies. This is not our job, we are not a government agency. For us, it's about creating a basis of trust - which is pretty tricky.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why?
Lange: We work for the pluralistic society that has often fought out dropouts for years. This is a double problem: how should society once again trust neo-Nazis - and how should former neo-Nazis trust society again?
SPIEGEL ONLINE: And how is that to be solved?
Lange: In consulting, we can do that by offering reliability. No one has to fill in forms or indicate his date of birth. In addition, we are not only concerned with the ideology of the people, but also take the other problems seriously: We help to apply for unemployment benefits or to find a new home.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What does housing search have to do with leaving the right-wing scene?
Lange: In the beginning it's almost always about security, about protection against attacks. Some people have to leave their city or even move to another state. We can organize this with our network confidently and at short notice. We do not have any money, but know-how - immediately and permanently.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How long?
Long: as long as necessary. In North Rhine-Westphalia, this is an average of three to four years.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: A long time.
Lange: However. This is due to the difficult social situations in which dropouts are stuck. They leave behind everything that they have built up since childhood and youth. Looking for new friends by the beginning or in the middle of 20 is incredibly difficult. A dropout once told me how he started listening to the radio: "I had to start to understand what other people my age do in their free time."
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How did the radio help?
Lange: He had only attended right-wing concerts and only read right-wing media. From this small, right-wing extremist world, he had to get out and reconstruct everything. The radio helped him understand the social reality. This is a lengthy process that usually begins long before the decision to leave.
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SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why do neo-Nazis leave the scene?
Lange: Often a disappointment is the trigger. The core promise of the right-wing scene is friendship, trust, companionship - but many find that this promise is not kept in difficult situations. As soon as you feel bad, suddenly there is no one left. In such situations, many draw a line and our work begins.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You benefit so to speak from the weaknesses of the right scene.
Lange: As a democratic majority society, we simply have a decisive advantage: where each individual is equal to the other, weak people and people do not easily fall by the wayside in crises.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How does an exit, if someone has family?
Lange: Ideally, couples decide together for it. This happens relatively often, in such cases, then virtually the whole family rises. But, of course, a relationship breaks down on this question. Political disappointment about the partner then mixes with personal frustration and emotions, removals must be organized faster than in other cases. It gets really complicated when children are in the game.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: To what extent?
Lange: Then it's also about the custody and custody. Of course we are not allowed to take care of adolescents. But we can help the outgoing partner to take the children with them. They should not have to grow up in right-wing extremist homes.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How do you even measure what is right-wing extremist? The range between populist positions and right-wing terrorist motives is enormous.
Lange: The most important feature is the hostility to people who are supposed to belong to a certain group - for example, because of their sexuality or their origin. Added to this is at least the acceptance of violence.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Both aspects have been working deeper into the center of society for some years now - one could last see this in the right-wing riots in Chemnitz.
Lange: That parts of the so-called bourgeois middle on the side of violent neo-Nazis go on the road, is actually new. There is also a differentiated spectrum of right-wing groups, some of which have significant potential to grow larger. The "Identitarian Movement" gives itself, for example, a modern, intellectual touch, but essentially represents the same ideology as traditional right-wing extremists. This can lead to reaching people who are still undecided in their attitude. I just hope that this is not a lasting development.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Because that would affect your work?
Long: Absolutely. For extreme right-wing people, the need to reflect on one's own ideology decreases when a growing segment of society has similar attitudes. That makes our work difficult, but I do not currently see any reason for panic.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why?
Lange: Because I do not see much change among the tough neo-Nazis: they have barely benefited from social development so far.