Towards a world where we can understand and trust others Interview with author Masaru Sato January 26th 18:49

After working as a diplomat in diplomacy with the former Soviet Union and Russia, he was arrested and became a criminal defendant.

Since then, Yu Sato has continued to gather information from all over the world and share his unique analysis.

As he welcomed the new year, he gave a long interview to NHK.

In the world, many lives are lost in successive wars and conflicts.

With his power behind them, they push through their claims. This trend is spreading.

The year 2024 has begun in turmoil, with a series of major disasters and accidents occurring in Japan.

How do we live in this “age of crisis”? I listened closely to Mr. Sato's words.

(Close-up modern reporting team)

“Extraordinary” diplomat

Mr. Sato joined the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1985 and was based in Moscow, where he engaged in diplomacy with the former Soviet Union and Russia. He set up his own information network in Moscow and other areas during the final stages of the former Soviet Union, and built powerful connections with numerous politicians.

The fruits of his work appeared in August 1991. A coup d'état launched by conservative groups opposed to the ``perestroika'' democracy policy promoted by then-President Gorbachev.

Looking at diplomatic documents from the time released by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 2022, it can be seen that while Moscow was in turmoil, Sato was making full use of his unique network of contacts and sending out in-depth information one after another.

The most symbolic of these efforts was that they were the first in the world to obtain information about Mr. Gorbachev's safety.

Sato:

``I met Mr. Ilyin, the second secretary of the Communist Party, and wrote on the cable, ``Is Gorbachev alive?'' But I actually asked him, ``Did you kill him?'' No, he's alive, but he has become seriously ill and is no longer able to work.''When I asked him, ``What kind of illness?'' he said, ``Rajkrit (радикулит).''I couldn't take notes, I kept repeating ``Rajkreet'' and ``Rajkreet'' in my head, and when I went to the embassy later and looked it up in the dictionary, it said ``strained back''.``This is a farce,'' I said.``Gorbachev is alive.''This is true. ”

The keyword is “intrinsic logic”

In February 2022, Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine militarily, ignoring international law. Even now, nearly two years later, there is no end in sight.

Mr. Ilyin, who passed on the information, and Mr. Sato, who continued to interact with him, are said to have learned the unique Russian logic that is relevant to the current Putin administration.

Mr. Sato

: ``I've been friends with Mr. Ilyin for a long time, and one time when we were drinking a lot of vodka, he said to me, ``The Soviet Union will collapse, and after that there will be chaos for a while, and there will be a so-called democratic government.'' We can do it, but there will always be a shake-up.A strong leader will emerge, and relations with the West will become tense again.That's Russia, under a strong leader.''From President Gorbachev to Yeltsin

. The era up to his time as president was rather an exceptional era, and Putin is connected to the era of Brezhnev, Stalin, and imperial Russia before that.For better or worse, Putin's logic is surprisingly supported by Russians. So in a sense, it seems like if we get rid of the dictator Putin, everything will have a happy ending, but I think we'll just end up with another Putin.''

Mr. Sato

: ``If you hate your neighbors so much that you don't even want to see their faces, you have the option of moving.The state cannot move.I am not in any way supporting what Russia is doing.'' No, and I cannot support it.Although the war against Ukraine is an act of aggression that violates existing international law, it is impossible for Ukraine to completely defeat Russia and recover its eastern regions and Crimea, as I have said from the beginning. I think that is the case. We need to think about how to deal with such a Russia."

In doing so, Mr. Sato repeatedly emphasizes that understanding ``intrinsic logic'' is important.

Intrinsic logic is a system of values ​​and beliefs that determines what the other person considers important when making decisions.

Mr. Sato believes that when it comes to issues surrounding Ukraine, rather than unilaterally "demonizing" Russia and stopping its thinking, it is possible to proceed with diplomatic negotiations accurately by grasping the underlying logic of Russia.

Mr. Sato

: ``If we don't do this now, we will end up on a path of killing each other.Groups that are different from us, from our perspective, seem to be doing abnormal and cruel things.'' If you understand properly what kind of logic people have. From Mr. Biden's point of view, Mr. Putin is the devil. From Mr. Putin's point of view, Mr. Zelensky and Mr. Biden are devils. Like real devils. I can see it.If the logic of people who have such values ​​is carried forward, the world will be destroyed.It's fine for those people to have such ideas, but if that's the case, then the world will be destroyed. I think we have to say things like, ``We're going to collapse, so let's all live in a smart way.''

Mr. Sato

: ``The problem surrounding Ukraine is that people who live in eastern Ukraine, speak Russian on a daily basis, and believe in Orthodoxy, say, ``Our identity is a combination of Russian and Ukrainian, but it's Russian.'' This is an issue regarding the treatment of people who have a stronger human element.At first, it was a regional conflict.Moreover, there was the

Minsk Agreement, which is a treaty that is even registered in the United Nations. If the constitution was changed to create a special governing system in areas that were effectively controlled by people of Russian descent, there was a mechanism for a soft landing.Then, the Russians also decided to exterminate all Ukrainians. I don't think about it.The Ukrainians don't think about exterminating all the Russians either.Therefore, I think we can come to terms with each other here.A cease-fire means that if Russia occupies That doesn't mean recognizing the region where they live. Just put down the guns and stop letting people die. Then, after that, resolve the issue through diplomatic negotiations. This direction is possible."

“Life is more important than anything”

Mr. Sato was born to a father from Tokyo and a mother from Kumejima, Okinawa.

His appeal to the importance of life has its origins in Okinawa, where a fierce ground battle took place during the last war.

Mr. Sato

: ``In my case, wearing this ``Kariyushi'' is half, or should I say half, about 80% of my identity as an Okinawan person, actually.

.My mother is from Okinawa, and at the age of 14, in a very exceptional case, she joined the Japanese military as a civilian employee. She also participated in the Battle of Shuri

.

, At that time, they handed me two grenades. They told me to kill myself in case of an emergency. They also gave me one more in case it didn't go off."

``We went to Mabuni and hid in a burrow.After the Japanese army had stopped their organized resistance, 17 of us hid in that hole.One day, we were attacked by an American soldier. Then, the mother pulled out the safety pin of the grenade and tried to slam it against the wall of the coral reef next to her. Then, a bearded corporal from the ``Mountain Unit'' next door said, ``Death is the right thing to do.'' I managed to survive by raising my hands, thinking, ``I can do this even after being a prisoner, so let's be a prisoner of war.''

But until the moment my mother died, she said, ``If I detonate a grenade there, it won't just be me, but 16 other people.'' 'I was killing them by making them collateral damage.'My mother told me that life is more important than anything else through her experience of the Battle of Okinawa since I was a child. I think it is in the

From a “hedgehog” to a player of peace

Currently, a situation in many parts of the world continues where countries refuse to compromise with each other, sometimes using military force to assert their claims unilaterally.

Sato believes that because Japan has experienced a tragic defeat in war, there is a possibility that Japan can chart a course toward peace.

Sato

: ``After the war, Japan was told that it would be fine as long as it shrank, but now the power of the United States is weakening, the power of Europe is weakening, and the power of the Global South is growing stronger. Both Russia and China are becoming more assertive.Furthermore, it appears that there is a movement worldwide that allows them to use their military power to assert themselves

. Considering that Japan was destroyed in such a way, it becomes a central country that takes the initiative for peace.However,

this is not a conceptual peace theory, but rather a proper development of Japan's defense capabilities, and then defense We will expand the range of equipment that can be used with Japanese specifications.However, it will be equipment as a deterrent to prevent war from starting.We will consider such things comprehensively.Asia-Pacific

region Discussions about Japan tend to become ``hedgehog'' questions about what would happen if China attacked or what would happen if North Korea defeated us, but in reality Japan has great national power and is a player that can take action. At that time, I believe that Japan will be able to strengthen its deterrence in defense as well as demonstrate peace-oriented defense cooperation and take peaceful initiatives in diplomacy

. I would like Prime Minister Kishida to go to Israel.I also want Prime Minister Kishida to go to Israel.I also want him to understand that Japan understands the fight against terrorism against Hamas.At the same time, I want him to express his political beliefs without linking them to anything. I am from Hiroshima, the country where nuclear weapons were used for the first time in the world.I have a strong belief that Nagasaki was the last town where nuclear weapons were used in a world war, and that this must not change.'' I would like to strongly emphasize this value.Although

Israel has an ambiguous strategy regarding its possession of nuclear weapons, there is a risk that Israel could also use nuclear weapons.Especially in the event of a future attack from Lebanon or Hezbollah. What if things get worse? Iran is developing nuclear weapons again. Mr. Kishida should be able to make a statement in the direction of nuclear abolition as a check against this situation. He should be proactive about these things and create more international order. If there are still many things that can be done now, I think it would be a good idea to do it.''

How should we live in “times of crisis”?

The international community is divided by successive wars and conflicts.

Even within Japan, divisions between generations and those who only believe what they want to believe are becoming more and more severe.

How do we live in an “age of crisis”?

Mr. Sato

: ``One more time, I'm wondering how I can strengthen relationships between people and relationships of trust, within my own hands, rather than trying to come up with a big theory.'' .Even if it's a ``Parent Gacha'', it means that you were born to parents by chance, so that doesn't mean it's your own ability.Then, if you go back even further, your ability is determined by what kind of parents you were born with. Because God decided that way. Then, since it is something that God has given us, we must give it back to God. Since we cannot give it back directly to God, we give it back to the people around us

. For people who think they are in a privileged environment, it is not their own strength, so they must give it back to society.Also, if you find yourself in a slightly difficult situation, feel free to ask for help. I think it's okay to say

that.If I can honestly say that, people who are in a good environment need to give something back to society because it's not their own strength.People who are in a difficult place don't try too hard. , please help me. If you say something like that, someone will definitely come to help you. This is how I think. A relationship of trust means that someone will tell you something, even if it is sometimes difficult to hear. This is a relationship of trust. Therefore, we must not hold back and say what we need to say. To do that, we must determine what our true interests are. We have no choice but to seriously consider such matters. This year will be the year when there will be no such thing, and I think 2024 will be the year.”

Masaru Sato

Born in 1960. He graduated from Doshisha University's Faculty of Theology. After completing his master's degree at the same university's Graduate School of Theology, he joined the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1985. He was engaged in diplomacy with the former Soviet Union and Russia, and after working at the Japanese Embassy in Moscow, he served as chief analyst of the Analysis Division 1 of the International Intelligence Bureau of the Ministry of Headquarters. In 2002, he was arrested and prosecuted by the Tokyo District Public Prosecutors Office on charges including breach of trust, and was given a suspended sentence. He made his debut as a writer with a work that describes his experience and appeals to the reality of ``national policy investigations.'' He has published numerous books based on his perspective as a former diplomat, his connections, and his wide range of knowledge. In 2020, he received the Kikuchi Hiroshi Award, which is given to individuals and organizations that have engaged in outstanding cultural activities.

Close-up Contemporary Series Yell for a New Era (2) Toward a World Where We Can “Understand” Others Writer Yu Sato

Broadcast on January 23rd and

available on NHK Plus until January 30th (Tuesday) 7:57 p.m.

Click here for the full interview with Yu Sato