- We have Zakhar Prilepin in the studio. There are many topics I would like to discuss with you. We meet on such difficult days. I've been buying newspapers all morning. I was wondering how many of our colleagues, journalists, would publish at least a photo of Dasha Dugina, who died, on the front page. Unfortunately, I didn’t take it; I still have Komsomolskaya Pravda at home. The only "Komsomolskaya Pravda", which took a photo of Dasha on the entire page. And for me it is very scary. You knew Dasha. She was driving from a festival that you co-organized. What was Dasha for you?
“It's a very old story.
She's from somewhere in the past.
Because, firstly, due to the fact that since the 1990s I have been a member of the now banned National Bolshevik Party * Eduard Limonov, Alexander Gelievich Dugin - they were its founders.
Therefore, everything connected with Dugin is generally part of my consciousness, part of my life, biography.
And then, when Dasha grew up (she was still very young when I first saw her), she was always present.
I can not say that a member of the family, but the closest such circle.
She has always been.
I'll probably say a personal thing.
Of course, I talked with her at Tsargrad.
We conceived some projects with her, there was always some kind of intellectual joint use.
But this last meeting - it was so strange for me.
I'll tell you about it here.
Don't think that I have some kind of amnesia.
At this festival... I am the organizer, I came up with it and have been leading it for eight years.
Eduard Boyakov is my partner, wonderful.
I move from site to site, making sure that everything is fine, that everything is wonderful.
And a girl comes up - very beautiful, some wonderful, just looking, just radiant.
But I haven’t seen Dasha, I probably haven’t seen her for a year, or maybe even a little more.
But this is already the degree of acquaintance that it is not necessary to meet.
That is, she sees me somewhere, what I do, I see her.
A girl comes up - beautiful, beautiful: "Hi, Zakhar."
We talked about something.
I think: so, who is this, something, I think, I have become with my memory.
And went on.
Then in another place she comes up again - and she said something, somehow reacted.
I laughed too.
And somehow in my head again.
Because I see hundreds of people there, and dozens of them are my acquaintances.
And also from a past life, from the life before last.
They come from Donbass, from political life.
And one, and two, and three.
She came up to me three times.
I think so, I'll remember later, okay.
And she changed her hairstyle, dyed her hair ...
- She went blonde.
—
And she has matured a lot.
So she opened up like a woman, got prettier.
And I think like this: what a beautiful girl, I think, where did I meet her?
I think I know her for sure.
And everything, and it was absolutely disastrous for me.
Five minutes after the incident, Eduard Boyakov called me.
He says: "It looks like Dasha exploded."
And I think: "Dasha ... Lord, how is it?"
And then a photograph immediately flies out in the media - and this is it.
And I think: I talked with her all day.
She came up to me all day.
And this, you know, happens in such cases when it should happen to a person, and a bird flies, and it circles.
Does she want to be released?
That was the feeling from her.
Here she is - time!
- flashed by this wing, there I saw her, then I saw her.
This whole day I have been under the feeling of these random meetings with Dasha.
Not random - just like that, spontaneous.
Because on this huge space, here, we crossed paths with her, so, so.
And this bird feeling, so amazing, there was magic in it, and then it turned out,
that it was deeply tragic.
I live with this feeling.
I think these are just meetings, these are incomprehensible.
And the fact that he did not recognize her at all.
I don’t know, I don’t even understand what conclusions should be drawn from this.
- Yes, Dasha changed her hair, she became a blonde. And it suited her very well. The last message I wrote to her was that a new hair color suits her.
“Here, I didn’t see her like that.
Still amazed by this.
She was remarkably smart, utterly charming.
And she was very mild-mannered, which is generally uncharacteristic for any political environment.
She was open to a wide variety of political views and beliefs.
That is, left, right, reasonable liberals, centrists, these or those radicals - she listened carefully.
At the same time, she had an inner core - maybe hereditary, maybe her own.
She was outwardly very kind, friendly.
But it felt like this...
- Strength.
- Strength, of course, a certain character.
And such clarity of consciousness.
At the same time, such a girlish and spontaneity, and charm.
Those eyes are shining and flashing.
There were so many wonderful things about her.
- Dasha was the personification of such young patriots. And for some reason, I have been asking this question for a long time, for some reason our enemies have made it so that it is not fashionable to be a young patriot. That is why it is not here, on the front pages. Because it's not fashionable. Why do you think?
“Our enemies” is an expression that diverts our aim a little.
Because they are not exactly our enemies.
These are, by the way, people who not so long ago were in the centers... I won't say that decision-making is in Russia, but not very far from them.
Because in general, Russia 25 years ago, even 15 years ago, is this average statistical feeling of what a young person is, how he should behave and who the kings of discourse are here, it was forming before our eyes.
It's GQ magazine that gives out all these awards.
Other hierarchies are cinematic, literary, theatrical, and all others.
For 2005, let's say, relatively speaking, especially for 1999, you won't find any patriots in the afternoon with fire.
What were there, so that they flashed, these patriots.
We have people of these convictions - Alexander Gelievich Dugin, Eduard Veniaminovich Limonov, Alexander Andreevich Prokhanov and others, they all went around in the status of urban lunatics.
Some incomprehensible demi-humans are wandering around there.
Sometimes something happened in the state, something gloomy - then they were called.
You come here, talk to the people that patriotism is good.
Then, when trouble came, for example, there was a campaign in the North Caucasus or this whole Georgian story, “08.08”, or some other events, 2014, they were called, then they said: “That's it, leave, that's it, now we have decent people will perform here again.”
So what kind of young people were to be formed?
Dasha Dugina is a person from this perpendicular environment.
She wasn't in the mainstream.
In the mainstream, not just liberal, but in the liberal-state mainstream.
Let's get this straight, so as not to play the fool.
The liberal-state mainstream suited us, relatively speaking, Gleb Pavlovsky, for example.
A man who is an absolute Ukrainian there.
He built this whole scheme, system.
Where is Dasha Dugina in this whole story?
There were completely different people there.
This huge inertia, firstly, the inertia of the 1990s and partly the inertia of the 2000s, of course, it entered the newspapers you brought and the newspapers you did not bring and still reigns there.
Yes, "Komsomolskaya Pravda" - in this sense, we have the most, as it were, humane, popular and so correct.
These are not the worst options yet.
We also have other newspapers there, some kind of Sobesednik, Novye Izvestia.
— Yes, there are. And why is it still unfashionable to be a patriot? How did they manage to do it?
“Because everything that was the most advanced, the most correct, the coolest, the clearest, the most like this — it was not just unpatriotic, it was hostile to the kind of patriotism that we are expounding today.
Here is the one we see in the context of the special operation.
Here are the volunteers, here are the militias, the military, that's all.
How many such examples do we know in this mainstream, trendy Russian culture, where are there similar lines of behavior, similar types, so that they are displayed in one way or another?
So that they are in the theater, so that they are in the cinema, so that they are in literature.
There hasn't been anything like it for a long time.
Because a man in uniform, some volunteer from Donetsk, please take this dirt away from here, please.
And the kings of discourse were completely different people.
And we will not name names, surnames and channels, but it is clear
that if a film critic, then Anton Dolin, perhaps.
Everyone knows that Anton Dolin.
— Film critic.
- Anton Dolin is a film critic, he knows what is the most correct movie.
And all these people who were our kings of discourse, on February 24 they all turned out to be absolutely, 100% hostile to what is happening.
But it was clear not on February 24th.
And some obsessive obscurantists like me talked about it quite annoyingly.
The guys, of course, are good, Antoshka is good, I know him well, they are all wonderful, but they will throw you at this moment, they will all throw you, because they are exactly on the opposite side.
Roughly speaking, they all support Kyiv, or New York, Washington, the European Union, or something else.
They have the "truth" there.
This has been clear to everyone for a long time.
And if in our country such kings of discourse were not at the level of some kind of liberal background, but they were presented as our elite at all levels, including state building and planning, what do you really want?
Where did our multinational people watch Dasha Dugin?
Where did he even see her?
He didn't see her anywhere.
So that young people, deciding whether to do life with whom, I will do it with Dasha Dugina.
No, of course, they did not see ... They saw Ksenia Anatolyevna Sobchak everywhere.
Full coverage nationwide please.
They saw Antosha Dolina, Ksenia Sobchak and everyone else from morning to evening.
They did not see Dasha Dugin anywhere.
- Here you have touched upon such a topic. A certain psychological, cultural war is going on against Russia, I would even say such a cultural destruction for many years. The Grad group was created.
- When was the first meeting of the "Grad" (a working group that includes State Duma deputies, senators and representatives of the media and culture. -
RT
), which I am neither a manager, nor an author, nor a decision-making center, it is a group of deputies and senators.
I know what's going on there, and I welcome you in every possible way.
But I'm definitely not into that part.
I have my front of work.
These are deputies, they write requests, they work, this is their own business.
Even there, on this shooting, when everything was happening, it was very clear what was happening there.
I spoke about the state of affairs in the sphere of culture.
Pretty much the same as what I'm telling you now.
And I said there: the state cherished, cherished and cherished this kind of culture.
And actually, we now have the following result - a very simple one.
We now have 25 new applications in the cinema for films that will be shot this year.
There is nothing there, even just a hint, some kind of shadow, about Ukraine, Donbass, the army, a special operation.
Nothing.
- It does not exist in nature.
- No, there is no such topic at all - that's all.
25 films.
I looked, looked, looked - there is nothing.
I think it must be, how amazing.
We could somehow (remove. -
RT
) a film about something else, but at the end there a soldier returns from the front, at least that way.
No, no, no, not in any way.
And I also talked about this in my speech.
And then one of the leaders of this group, Dmitry Kuznetsov, he says: "I will now explain the mechanism why this happens."
He says: we have brought a list of experts from the Cinema Fund who make this decision.
Allocate money.
Yes, they allocate money, make a decision.
He brought the entire list.
He says: "We analyzed it, looked - here one person somehow supported the special operation."
How do we usually support a special operation?
"I am against Pushkin being banned."
Everything, well done, work.
- At least that's it.
- Yes.
But six people strongly opposed.
I don't remember the exact number, but something like this.
There are 30 of them, of which six are against, one is somehow for.
And others also have lists - on literature, on the theater, there are also lists there.
They were also analyzed.
These are not blacklists, they just took it from the site, downloaded all these names ...
Experts.
That is, what kind of films, or books, or performances do you want, if these people, if they are against it.
He says: “Let's at least, maybe, bring three people here, five here and seven here.
To have some balance.
At least they will not be 100%, but 75%.
That was the conversation.
And even these lists were not given to journalists.
Someone took a picture of them there, cunning journalists, and dumped them on the net right there.
And the network immediately threw in that these are blacklists prepared by Grad ...
- But these are not our methods - blacklists.
- No, it's kind of bullshit.
And most importantly, a huge number of people, even sane people, bought into it.
They call me, they say: “Zakhar, you have lists there, there are good people there.”
It would be nice if I tried to replay it all after the fact.
There is a record there.
Everything is there ... Moreover, Kuznetsov says: we do not demand any administrative, let alone criminal, things.
He says: we agree to any, how to say, human ...
— Discussion.
No, not even a discussion.
And the fact that a person who wants to somehow show sympathy, or acceptance, or some other form of solidarity with the state, then let him give the smallest hint.
Let this person bring a jar of jam to refugees, just children, even from Donbass.
Not that he will go with a concert somewhere in Izyum or Kharkov.
And we will not even touch this list.
But let them show that they know about this trouble.
It was the only, I say again, the only form of influence in general on everything that happens there.
Or then, he says, we will make a request to the state bodies that, please, here are those people who strongly oppose the special operation - let them not receive state funding ...
I don't receive state funding, let's compete in a free market environment.
How do I compete with them?
Let's put on plays, make movies.
But in a market environment.
Where are we all, patriots, and are.
Because if you do not accept the actions of the state, do not share the misfortune and death, the torment of our military, refugees, then do not take money from the state.
Everything is simple.
As if everything is extremely simple.
There is no 1937, no 1946, no lists - nothing.
Just sort of get off your boobs then.
That's all.
And if you don’t want to unhook from the boobs, take a jar of jam to the Belgorod or Voronezh refugee center.
Just this, nothing else.
And we will take a picture of you and say: at least this.
Howl stood like that.
Newspaper "Pravda": 37th year, now we will kill these.
Such a lie ... I, frankly, have never come across.
The most disgusting thing is that in our country a number of patriots got sucked into the same story and began to yell even worse than the liberals.
Liberals, of course, took an extremely active part in this.
But the patriots... I say: well, okay, boys, okay, well done.
Like this, like this.
You are afraid that now they will start cutting patriotic budgets, but you will not get it.
- Understood. Because there is really a lot of information. And our dishonest fellow journalists have already called it almost hit lists, black lists, and so on. But the market decides everything. Vladimir Vladimirovich in one of his speeches said that that's it, there is nothing to be afraid of sanctions. Come to the Crimea, go to the liberated territories. Only one bank entered the liberated territories. Quite recently, one of the football functionaries said that the football clubs of the Crimea and Donbass - he does not yet see them in Russian leagues. Here's what to do with it? These tentacles of this liberal octopus and some kind of pro-Ukrainianism are everywhere.
Everywhere, you're right.
Everywhere.
- How to cut them? Not people - tentacles.
- In chess.
In show business.
On TV.
There is a lot of this everywhere.
Because we must understand that we have built this system ourselves.
It's not like some liberal came from outside.
This is the system itself, it looked like this.
This is the common, collective fault of the entire state.
Because the West was a partner, dear partners, partners, partners, we will come to an agreement with them, and so on.
Ukraine is also a neighboring, fraternal state, we will also join them through the Minsk agreements.
In general, this is all correct.
Then - time!
- and with a snap of his fingers, Vladimir Vladimirovich delivered a speech on the 22nd - on the 24th everything changed.
Of course, we must understand that this whole system - it does not reboot so quickly.
The question is that somehow no one is going to reboot it.
But we cannot conduct a special operation, let alone win a special operation,
all the more so to carry the Russian world to the liberated territories in any form, if this is not behind it in any capacity.
What a Russian world, if here it looks like this, with the Bi-2 group at the St. Petersburg stadium and everything else.
And without a single film that is somehow dedicated to this.
And what to do with all this?
I, once again, have only the theory of small deeds.
That is, we must - left patriots, right patriots, White Guards, Reds - stop sorting things out between each other and strictly within the framework of the law, as our president teaches us, strictly within the framework of the law, these are these things ... Especially since we have deputies , there are senators, we must register them.
A very simple thing, in fact, is to cut off those people who are against it from the state budgets.
- That is, including just ... We are on a TV channel, even just work on state channels. We have the State Channel One, VGTRK and others.
- There are various variations.
If a person is silent, then let him be silent.
A person has the right to have some opinion, which he is not obliged to express.
Once again I am talking about those people who strongly and consistently oppose it.
There are a lot of them.
There are a very significant number of them.
And we are little by little, we will just change the temperature inside this community.
So that the liberals say all the time: let's have a civil society.
So let's create a civil society with the ability to ask relevant ministries direct questions from society.
We have 72% of society support the special operation, according to our sociology.
Here, the Ministry of Culture does not release a single film related to the special operation.
This means that there must be some kind of community, some form, structure that can ask: so, dear comrade Lyubimova, please explain to me
What's going on, yes.
- There is no 1937, there is nothing here.
It's just that this is a question of a rather serious community of people, which represents a variety of groups: television, literature, public councils, chess, and something else.
And she will have to answer it out loud.
We want a civil society.
Let our officials answer us out loud.
Why, Mr. Beglov, do you have "Bi-2"?
I can compile a quote book about what these guys have said in eight years about the special operation.
Explain simply the principle of your choice, the mechanism.
Because the way these people behave means such a disregard for society.
That is, yes, do not care what these people consider important there.
We are friends with these guys, everything is fine with them, they are artists, they see it that way, and we, as it were, are like this.
And then these groups go to the stadium - and the whole stadium screams, as it were: let them go to hell.
- It's still soft.
- All the people scream like that.
They say: why, Lord, should we look at them?
Why?
- And they are doing well.
- If you are friends up there, this does not mean that we should look at it with all the people.
Conduct any polls.
This is not Prilepin, obscurantist, he invented all this.
Conduct any polls on all these characters and ask people which of them wants Maxim Galkin to speak on TV again from morning to evening.
And you will see this real sociology.
Why not... If you are for democracy, let's turn on democracy.
That, in fact, is all.
Let's just turn on democracy.
No lists, no executions, no layoffs, no all that.
Market.
If you want a market, we are for the market.
Let's really ... for the market.
We have radio stations - let the guys who sing in the Donbass, travel to the Donbass, perform in the Donbass compete there, and those who were silent, for example.
But that situation doesn't even exist.
There are still different kings of discourse.
And I have familiar musicians, I don’t want to name them, who traveled and sang in the Donbass.
So the 14th year has passed - they were needed, the 15th - there are already less needed there.
And the 16th came, they were told: “Do you know that it so happened that you are now performing on a small stage?”
He says: “Why am I on a small stage?”
Well, just on a small stage, there is a children's scene there - perform there, and other guys will perform on the big one.
And he calls me: “Zakhar, it’s okay, I kind of traveled to the Donbass.”
I say: "Well, that's it, we have such a situation."
And this is not only in music, it is in many other areas.
Is it normal?
How to ask... Dear state, is it normal that people fight, drive, sing, perform directly under shelling, then it all ends - and these musicians, these poets and these artists begin to be crushed by their own environment?
I have a favorite example, as I have one artist friend, a star of just the first level, says: “Zakhar, if I like you on any social network, I can lose my role right there.
Just because I liked you."
This is Wednesday.
They say to me: “Don’t escalate, we have Volodya Mashkov, we have, there, Leps, we have Bezrukov, everything is fine, what are you escalating?
Lots of good artists.
I say: “Normal, of course, but the person liked it and lost the role.”
- Probably, some time should pass, then the very formation of civil society. You talked about the theory of small things. I know that you have such a large volunteer group working in the Donbass. And now it is very important, in my opinion, it is very important to show the residents of Donbass that all of Russia is really with them. And I really liked this tactic, when, in fact, all this big Donbass pie was divided between the regions and each region took some of its own area in which it is more expert, where enterprises work best, and so on. Tell us about your volunteer project. And your colleagues wrote that they came under fire?
- Listen, this is such a story - until the morning approximately.
My volunteer project started in the summer of 1914.
And I have the oldest humanitarian fund in general, working with the Donbass, in Russia.
Maybe there are some competitors, to be honest, I don’t know such a sequence and such a longitude of time among competitors.
All this time, all these eight and a half years, we have not stopped helping Donbass for a month.
It was a permanent job.
Of course, when the special operation began, we rebooted it again.
And we were the first to open the so-called headquarters of Zakhar Prilepin in Izyum, Kherson, and a number of other territories.
Because in my team, mostly people who fought.
Or volunteers from the 14th year.
And a lot of local guys.
Mostly locals who are of local origin.
Therefore, this is their own land for them.
We have a number of parliamentary parties there, which also fit into this story, also invested, and are also ready to work there.
There are even institutions of various institutions that are involved in this.
And those provinces you are talking about.
But this experience that we have is, of course, not comparable with anything.
Because all the cities that we have just taken, over the past five months, where there has been the greatest destruction - Mariupol, Rubizhnoye, Popasnaya, Severodonetsk - we entered all these cities either the very first, or along with someone else.
It's just that the fight is going on on that street - and here my guys are already handing out humanitarian aid.
Because they are local
because they fought, because they always work there, because they know everything.
Therefore, they came under fire - it seems to sound somewhat comical ...
They shot at their headquarters.
- No, because they always work under fire - this is a normal situation.
And it was not our headquarters that was fired at.
We have a number of our various organizations there - in the territories, of course, they periodically come under fire.
And the last time was just yesterday.
Thank God we didn't have anyone in that place.
And just this HIMARS flew there, this nonsense.
In short, everything was blown there.
But, thank God, all our guys were away.
“Thank God it worked out. You have listed the liberated cities. There is a referendum ahead. Even when the Crimeans made their choice in 2014, we also looked back. They were waiting for someone to recognize Crimea as ours. Should we now, even for a moment, think that someone should admit that the DNR, LNR, perhaps, will want to be part of Russia? Kherson region, Zaporizhzhia, Kharkov, perhaps, will also want to be part of Russia. Are we tired of looking back? And is it necessary?
— The fact is that you are talking about this logic of Eurocentrism, which we all have in our heads.
Even when you ask a question, you, and I, and our viewers are all sure that we are talking about the European Union, about the United States, about Canada, about Australia.
Our minds are so twisted that we read the news: "The Chinese leader said that 85% of the population supports Russia."
And we are so happy.
And then you ask this question and we still think about Europe.
It is important for us that Germany, France, Italy recognize the DPR and LPR.
But I don't know what needs to be done here so that we turn off such an understanding of the issue.
Just imagine for a second that something like this is happening in our minds - both the DPR and the LPR, as well as the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions, the part that is below us, is recognized by ten countries of Latin America, China and India, 25 African countries ...
- And Belarus to the heap.
- And Belarus to the heap, yes.
That's it, what do we want?
Why do we need the European Union to recognize us?
The European Union, which we ourselves can freeze.
Who supplies weapons against us, does not spare us, bombs us.
I did not write a single publication about the terrorist act in the center of Moscow, about the murder of Dasha Dugina.
That is, he does everything to prove that he despises us, hates us.
And the only mercy that he allows in relation to us is that he says: “Come on, so be it, as if we allow you to give us a little warmth, and we will warm ourselves, so be it.”
Well, what kind of sadomasochism is this Russian national?
- That's what I'm wondering.
“This Eurocentrism needs to be turned off.
We need to put up this iron curtain and open the window sometimes, asking: “Well, how are you there, do you feel okay?”
They're yelling at something!
— closed back.
- And to remind you that winter is coming, yes, regularly?
— Когда постучат с той стороны, когда будут сильно стучать, можно открыть потом, посмотреть. Мы ничего не знаем о том, что происходит в Китае, что происходит в Индии, что в Африке, что в Латинской Америке. Там же культура, понимаете, она огромная культура. Ещё зачастую не тронутая этим коллективным ЛГБТ-парадом, который прошёлся уже по всей Европе. Там писатели, музыканты. Я немножко ездил там. Зайдёшь в какой-нибудь ночной клуб на Кубе — и там сидят такие ребята, они лабают просто. Там такие литераторы есть интересные. А мы... влепились в эту Европу и глядим туда как заворожённые. Но это не весь мир, не весь мир. Знаете, какая интересная китайская цивилизация, сколько там всего интересного происходит? Давайте столицу перенесём туда вот, куда-нибудь поближе, в Хабаровск — и всё. Знаете, как будет всё интересно? Во-первых, из Хабаровска будут Прибалтика и Польша очень далеко. Будет где-то какая-то Европа там. А нормально... у нас здесь Китай, Северная Корея, ближайшие друзья. То есть надо как-то раз это перевернуть, зоны мозга. И уверяю вас, откроются совсем иные виды.
— Просто со школы мы ещё, карту когда открываешь — в центре Европа. Даже не Россия. Хотя у американцев же наоборот, у них как раз Соединённые Штаты в центре.
— Да, молодцы.
— А всё остальное — маленькое, где-то там, на этом глобусе, который закручивается.
— Да.
— Вы говорили, что нам нужно повесить этот железный занавес, открывать периодически и переосмыслить. Владимир Путин неоднократно говорил, да и министр обороны Сергей Шойгу, буквально на форуме «Армия», о том, что всё, мир другой, не однополярный. Какой мир стал, на ваш взгляд?
— Какой мы построим, такой и будет. Ещё раз: у нас это понятно нашему главнокомандующему и Шойгу понятно, может быть, ещё трём-четырём людям. Нам с вами тоже понятно, кстати, заодно. А сама система, которую они выстроили, — она всё делает, чтобы это понимание не включилось. Они говорят: «Конечно, сейчас они там немножко всё это, а потом мы обратно будем как при бабушке, как при дедушке». Вот в этом проблема, понимаете? И видоизменение системы — оно, к сожалению, вот так вот, на щелчок, не происходит. Её надо всю перестраивать, всю эту машину, чтобы она начала разворачиваться в иные стороны. Потому что, конечно же, незримая надежда, что всё это закончится, существует у всего. Не только у культуры, не только у шоу-бизнеса. Она существует у экономики, у банковской сферы. У нашего российского списка Forbes. У наших владельцев дискурса и интеллектуалов. Она у всех существует. И ещё не сформулирован в полной мере этот концепт иного будущего. То есть Путин сказал, что всё изменилось, да. А как изменилось? Объясните, разжуйте нам, пожалуйста.
На самом деле, конечно, это огромные интеллектуальные центры, которые должны сейчас, прямо уже позавчера, быть созданы и начать это нам проговаривать. Вспоминать. Эту карту, о которой вы говорили, — её заново открывать. Смотрите, у нас тут Латинская Америка, как интересно, какие у нас были взаимоотношения сложные. А тут у нас Африка, смотрите. А тут у нас Средняя Азия — и далее там. Короче, Индия там. Много всего — огромная планета. Давайте мы её заново будем открывать для себя, понимаете, как Афанасий Никитин. Надо открыть университет Афанасия Никитина. И побрести наконец по миру, и открыть, переоткрыть мир заново. Потому что слов Путина мало, прямо скажем, мало пока для страны. Для него-то, может… Он, может быть, скажет: «Я вам говорил вообще». Во-первых, он сказал у нас по поводу культуры. Он сказал: «Ребята, обратитесь, пожалуйста, к офицерам, к солдатам, к бойцам». Он же добрый у нас президент. Он говорит: «Ну сделайте, пожалуйста, обратитесь». Мы подождали месяц, два. Обратились? Нет, вообще ничего не произошло просто. Но он же сказал. Он и сейчас сказал: «Мир другой там». А он же никогда не забывает, что он говорит. Он потом спрашивает, через какое-то время.
Он может подождать месяц, два, три, год, пять лет. Как с Украиной. Он же сказал ещё давно какие-то вещи, в 14-м году, в 15-м году. Что мы не дадим людей Донбасса в обиду. Все подумали: ну ладно. Год, два, три, четыре, пять проходит — потом вдруг — раз! — начинается спецоперация. Мы теперь там видим некоторые последствия. Там есть города в руинах, между прочим. В силу самых разных обстоятельств. Надо запоминать всё, что он произносит. Сейчас люди, которые у нас сидят и ждут, что закончится вся эта история со спецоперацией, с поворотом на восток, что мир другой, — они думают, что сейчас он забудет. Он не забудет. И вы можете тоже однажды оказаться в руинах. И та работа, которую сейчас мы проводим, общественники и инициаторы разнообразных «Градов», всего остального, — это во имя вашего уже спасения. Вы, пожалуйста, поменяйтесь побыстрей. Потому что потом, когда он передумает или вспомнит, что вы ничего не сделали, вы будете в руинах все лежать. Так вижу.
— Конечно, «всё в руинах» звучит не очень хорошо...
— В данном случае это символически говорится. Но у нас некоторые сферы культуры, знаете, можно и руинизировать. Все эти разнообразные «голубые огоньки» из людей, которым уже по 186 лет, — они никуда не исчезают...
— И в перьях всё бегают. Что будет, на ваш взгляд, финишем спецоперации, что останется от Украины и останется ли вообще Украина как государство?
— Это зависит от всего этого контекста, который мы сегодня с вами обсуждали. Потому что если Россия для себя твёрдо решит, что европейский проект для России если не закрыт, то хотя бы приостановлен, то мы очень многое можем сделать, очень многое. Если мы для себя его закрыли только на 5%, на 10%, если элита не поняла, что это серьёзно, и думает, что мы блефуем, значит, у нас осенью могут начаться переговоры. Как только Европа взмолится и скажет: пожалуйста, дайте нам... Мы зерно им уже дали. И кстати, возможно, зря это сделали. Потому что никакую Африку они не кормят…
— Так они же сами жрут.
— ...Сами себя и кормят, да. Вот мы их решили кормить. Много ли они нам за это благодарны? Может быть, те люди, которые причастны к принятию решений, скажут: «Дорогой Захар, ты посмотри, насколько меньше стали поставлять вооружений». Насколько меньше. Они скажут: «Это вот потому... Поэтому давай, не радикализируй». Может быть. Но я боюсь, как бы сейчас они осенью не начали просить перемирия — и опять не началась эта замыленная история. Потому что Украина говорит: пускай они остановятся там, где они встали, а лучше пусть отойдут подальше. Харьковскую область освободите, а про Запорожье мы ещё обсудим. И вот эта вся фигня — она опять будет тянуться. А мы прекрасно знаем, что это не закончится никогда. Мы уже это проверили на примере 14-го года, Минских соглашений, первых и вторых. Это не заканчивается никогда. Если вы сейчас хотите продлить, это не означает, что вы спасёте какие-то жизни. Это означает, что люди на новом этапе опять вынуждены будут разгребать это в гораздо более жёстких обстоятельствах. Вот хотелось бы, чтобы это понимало и население страны.
And our population can influence the situation in the country, I noticed this a long time ago.
It influences invisibly... On the whole, it even influenced the change of liberal discourse.
Silent people, silent, they looked, looked, looked ... Well, he stopped voting for Yabloko and the Union of Right Forces.
He looked gloomily - and such a power, as it were, says: "No, of course, we are statesmen, imperialists."
It was the people who influenced it.
It is necessary that he now look just as gloomy and say: “You are it, let's be careful there.
Don't wag your tail - finish it."
See the full interview on the RTD website.
* Interregional public organization "National Bolshevik Party" - an organization recognized as extremist and banned on the territory of Russia (decision of the Moscow City Court of 19.04.2007).