“The Hollywood template was applied to me”: Maria Butina - about the nature of the charges, the day of arrest and plans for the future

- What did you do in America? How did you end up there?

- I studied. I entered the magistracy, on international relations. I was admitted to an American university in Washington. I finished it, got a work permit. I received an invitation to work at the university as an assistant professor. And two days later they arrested me.

- To be completely honest, you have not only studied. There was some political activism, right?

- Sure. But one does not contradict the other at all. I’ll tell you directly when you come to study, especially in the specialty of “international relations”, to engage in international relations is a natural practice. Therefore, I am a person who with great respect and attitude to America. I am a man who has great love for his homeland. For me, understanding the friendship between the two countries and building international relations, the importance of civil diplomacy in this matter - all this was completely natural.

- Was it or is it still?

- Remains, because good and bad people are everywhere. And I believe that the American people should very seriously take care of what is happening in their own country. But there are good people. Therefore, I believe that if the relations between the two countries are based precisely on friendship between people, student exchanges, religious friendship, in fact, what I was doing, a community of other interests, then everything will be fine. But, unfortunately, the American state is very actively opposing such activity, they probably do not want to build peace.

- After what happened to you, do you think that improving relations between Russia and the United States is possible?

- Of course available. Unfortunately, what happened to me, and how Russia is now positioned in the United States, has nothing to do with Russia. They are just trying to find, so to speak, a scapegoat. And now in the internal games that take place between Republicans, Democrats ... Notice, this power has nothing to do with democracy or with people. They share power within themselves. But we must find an external enemy. Who is the perfect external enemy? Russia is to blame for everything. But someone needs to be blamed for something. If we didn’t find any composition in anything, let's take, now, a student, I, in this case, put her in jail and say that she is to blame for everything. This is completely absurd. If I were, today, an American citizen, I would just be offended to listen to this. What, I don’t realize at all what, and I can’t choose whom I vote for? This requires Russian intervention, or something to suggest? This is completely absurd.

- What do you think, what happened to you would not have happened if there hadn’t been for the political situation that existed in 2016-2018 after the election of Trump?

- Of course, the political situation is just that. And the second - I, unfortunately, with great regret for myself, have to say that racism exists in America. And he exists, and he thrives. Look, if I were a representative of any other nationality, and not Russian, there would be no business at all. You see, if today you are Russian in the United States, you have reasons for concern. And I am living evidence of this.

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“Okay, let's talk about your arrest.” How did this happen and what was presented to you initially?

- It was a terrible day. It's hard for me to remember this. Because my friend and I were going to move. I got a job. All things have already been collected. And I heard a completely wild knock on the door. My comrade went to open the door - and disappeared. It somehow alarmed me. Then I heard someone call my name. Says: "Mary, come here." And so I quietly approach the door, it is around the corner. I open the door - I see, probably, about 12 FBI agents, in full uniform, with rifles. And they asked me to leave the apartment and handcuffed me. They began to ask me if I could hurt them with something. I can only probably hit someone with a notebook. And that's it, they arrested me. And since then I have not seen freedom, until today.

- Initially, what was presented to you? Charges of espionage?

- Never presented. I have never been shown espionage. These are speculations that were simply hyped by media stories based on how I look, I guess. I don’t know, on some fantasies. Because, probably, all Hollywood films have revised what spies should look like. I don’t know, it seems to me that people just don’t quite think.

- You addressed the congress at closed hearings, for eight or nine hours you were asked about something, you were asked to provide thousands of documents.

“Yes, when the investigation began, they sent me a request from the intelligence committee.” They said: “Would you like to talk about your activity, about your connection with the National Rifle Association, that you came to the National Prayer Breakfast, are in some kind of relationship with Alexander Torshin?” Do you know what I told them? "No problem".

“Was that before your arrest?”

- Yes. I said: “Now, I got such a paper, what should I do, what do you think?” I decided to consult with him, as a person whom I really respect. He is a longtime friend and my mentor, a good friend. I asked him: “What, in fact, do?” He told me: “Maria, provide them with all the documents, we are not doing anything like this. We only stand for peace and friendship. " Which, in fact, was. Therefore, I don’t know why I was searched. I gave all the documents to the Senate two weeks before the search. I voluntarily provided them with everything. Listen, I did nothing, I had nothing to hide.

“What did they ask?” What can I ask for eight hours?

“Everything I did in the United States.” How did I go to study. About the trip of the National Rifle Association here to Russia. I can notice that when I was searched, I did not change the passwords on my computer, I did not delete a single file. Because I did nothing, I voluntarily submitted all the documents. Therefore, I do not know why this whole story was with arrest and all that. If it was all a matter of not registering, why it wasn’t easy, I don’t know, I should write a fine then, in the end. Why was there such cruelty, what was it for?

- As soon as you were arrested, the American press wrote that during the searches you found a note written supposedly by you. And on the note it was written: “What should the FSB answer about their request for some work”. What is this note?

- The note was not written by me, but by my comrade - this is the first. The second one. Of course, I can only assume what he meant. But, as far as I know from our conversations ... Listen, if my activity would have received any further very serious development, then there might have been some interest. But history does not have such a subjunctive mood - nothing happened, there was no interest in American activities on the part of our special services. Therefore everything. How can such a note be provided as evidence? Moreover, she did not even belong to me. How can I bring it to my business, I do not understand completely.

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- In addition to the note, there was such a beautiful story. It arose around the same time that a film was released with Jennifer Lawrence about Russian spies who sell sexual services for the sake of promotion, dating, in order to get to some high-ranking American officials.

- Unfortunately yes.

- This is exactly the image that was promoted on all the central American media structures. And, most importantly, it was submitted for a reason, it was filed with the permission of the prosecutor's office. Which then, as I understand it, was forced to apologize. How did you respond to such allegations?

“They should be ashamed of it.” Because America, which positions itself as a country that protects the rights of women, behaves like that? To take it and simply, based on how I look, make some kind of statements of this kind ... Listen, I have a family. I am very proud of my origin. Because I have two grandmothers, two teachers. We have the same names with them. I respect them very much. I have nothing to do with these sex stories. How do I live with this now? And then they apologized. Now what am I to do with this? Therefore, I believe that such statements ... I was very surprised, and saddened, that the judge did nothing with this ... They could blame me for anything. In work as a foreign agent, in anything. But to bring in such things, knowing ... Well, they did not understand that they were lying? Of course they knew. They saw this message. They understood that this was originally a lie in order to keep me in jail, so that they would not let me go on bail. But what should I do with my reputation? I think it’s a shame for America to behave this way.

- Is it possible to say that this story was created in order to create a certain image that is understandable for the American audience, for the American consumer.

- Sure. They just took a Hollywood template, for some reason they applied it to me. As proof of my guilt, they indicated the color of my hair, certain parameters of my figure. That's how it should be, because we saw it in the movies. And it became clear to everyone, and this became the main story on television. Because, you know, if you remove this element that they brought in - sex for money and all that - then the case itself, even if it remains, is very boring. Whether there was activity there by a foreign agent was not. This is a paper case, very bureaucratic. But they added color to it.

Unfortunately, I became convinced that there is no justice in America. When more than 90% of people plead guilty and never go to jury. Because they know they will be blamed. What kind of justice can one talk about here?

- The New York Times, one of the most respected newspapers in the United States, wrote that you were the person who was supposed to arrange the meeting between Trump and Putin. What do you say to that?

“They do a lot of honor to me.” Of course not. The only thing I did about Trump was I asked him a question at a conference that he shouldn't even be at. He just unexpectedly arrived at a conference in Las Vegas. It was a libertarian conference, which is held annually, in which I was interested simply as a person sharing such ideas. And then Trump spoke. I had the opportunity to ask a question. And, lo and behold, I asked about Russia. Because I am a citizen of Russia. For some reason, everyone was so surprised. There is nothing strange about this. I am often asked: “Why did you ask about sanctions?” Because I believe that trade is the basis for building good relations between countries. So it was thousands of years ago. Trade has always been the most serious reason to improve relationships. Naturally, I asked about the sanctions, because this is wrong for, first of all, the people of both countries.

- Those speculations and distortions that were published by top American newspapers, American television channels ... Maybe they legally force them to change their history at least now? Or you are no longer up to it.

- Today, I am considering how to continue my struggle. Because my return is not the end of the whole story. For my part, this is the beginning. If I don’t take any action at all, I’ll say: “Well, it was and was, let's forget about it,” I simply have no right to do so. Because this is not the glory that I would like in my life. But since it happened, I must become the voice of those who are accused undeservedly, who are being mistreated. So I must now engage in, I think, human rights activities. As for my specific situation - life will show. But I have to discuss this with my family, with my father, first of all. I think some kind of decision will be made in the near future.

- You signed a confession. According to lawyers, if the case went to court, it is not a fact that they could prove your guilt. Why did you confess?

“I'll tell you so.” Imagine that you are in a foreign country, away from your parents, you do not have the opportunity to contact your family, you are in a punishment cell, in solitary confinement, you are very cold, you are sitting on the floor, you can potentially get 15 years old. I figured how old I would be, and whether my parents would live to see this happy day. And here you will find out American statistics - the chance of a conviction in the United States directly at a jury trial is approximately 98%. That is, your chance to lose is very likely. Plus, who are the judges? Who would judge me? I would be judged by a jury in Washington. The same people who watch CNN. The same people who are already, so to speak, crammed with this information. Yes, it wouldn’t matter there. Whatever they accuse me of. I would be judged for being Russian. And they would give me 15 years. Therefore, I believe that I have made the only right decision. There was no other way then.

“You said you were put in solitary confinement.” Why? This is standard practice, are you some kind of dangerous person?

- This is not standard practice. I do not understand such cruelty, I do not understand why this was done. I think so, they tried to break my will, something else, to find out some secrets. I had no secrets. When we started these sessions, the briefings, as they call them, with the prosecutor's office, I think that from the first or second they understood everything. They had all my computers, still, by the way, all my papers. I did not delete anything. They looked at everything. There was nothing there. But they could not recognize this “nothing”. It was necessary to somehow justify why the American taxpayers paid for the whole show.

- That is, it was an element of pressure.

- Of course.

- Tell me, would you be ready to go to America again now? Or ever.

- Firstly, I can’t go to America right now. I was banned.

- Legally, is this impossible?

- Yes, in view of my “terrible” crime - building peace between the two powers - I naturally use this word with irony here - I cannot return to the United States for 10 years. This is strictly prohibited. But I would wait now to return there. Since the situation is there, the attitude towards the Russians is not very good right now. I confirm this.

- Let's talk about Mr. Torshin. Tell us how you met him and what role he plays in this story.

- Nobody sent me to America. Incidentally, I respected and respected Alexander Porfiryevich as my mentor and senior comrade. We met at a rally for weapons rights. He always shared and advocated the idea of ​​the right to weapons, for which I very, very respect him. This has not always been a trend. Rather, it was not in trend. Despite this, he always advocated consistently for the rights to weapons. He traveled to America long before me. And naturally he did not need my help. My relationship with him is purely mentoring, I respect him very much. Honestly, I don’t know what happened to him recently, I hope everything is fine, because we did not have the opportunity to contact. But I hope that we will have such an opportunity.

- Your activist activity, your idea that in Russia you need to have a second amendment, as in the United States, where does this come from?

- Everything from the family, naturally. Dad taught me how to handle weapons. And somehow a little hobby grew up in a public organization, in defense of the rights of people who were in a situation of self-defense. That's important for me. In no case did I change my views on this issue. You know, I will tell you more. When I was arrested, diplomats from the embassy came on the second day. And the right to weapons has never been on the official agenda of the Russian state. And, despite the fact that I was never a Kremlin activist, the guys from the embassy came and supported me every day, they fought for me every day. Just like a Russian citizen. I am very proud of this.

- In your opinion, how realistic is the adoption of such a law on weapons in Russia? In the US, many believe that this law leads to an increase in the number of massacres.

- Unfortunately, such a phenomenon also exists in Russia. And you need to understand that my organization has always advocated the permission to carry weapons for self-defense - pistols and revolvers. Today, unfortunately, we are allowed only long-barreled weapons, which are impossible to carry for self-defense, and traumatic weapons, which, unfortunately, are involved in criminal reports ...

- Are you ready to continue this activity?

“Yes, absolutely.”We now have a wonderful chairman of the organization (probably we are talking about the right to arms, an interregional public organization. - RT ). By the way, my organization and my colleagues supported me. They wrote me letters. Nobody left me, left me. And I am very, very grateful for that. We now have a chairman who spoke in my defense, in my support. I think that I should give him the opportunity to continue his representation in this organization. I will support her, naturally. But, probably, the focus of my activity will now be somewhat shifted in connection with what happened to me.

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- And without contact with the NRA (National Shooting Association of the USA)?

- And I was expelled from the NRA. An official notice was sent to my lawyers that due to the fact that I received a criminal record, according to the NRA charter, I am officially expelled. So the NRA can sleep well.

- For Russia, NRAs are such rednecks, uncouth Americans. What kind of people are these? Who is involved in the organization, who is at the top?

- Very different people. No, NRA is a very good organization. I will say this: she is very successful in terms of promoting the interests of the right to arms. However, unfortunately, she became very political. I believe that an organization that fights for the right to arms, the right to self-defense, which, say, my organization does in Russia, must still somehow participate in politics in a balanced way. Because this is a general civil issue. The NRA, today, is just a political organization that supports certain political candidates. And because of this, they already cannot fully advocate for the right to weapons as such. And that is regrettable. Because when I met NRA and generally came to the USA, I, of course, came for an example, to see how they built this organization. However, I came to see how the "magic West" lives. You know how a moth flames, how beautiful it all is. And, unfortunately, I certainly don’t know where to live well, but, apparently, America is not the answer.

- Was the West not so magical?

- Yes it is.