play videoplay video
Video duration: 13 minutes 19 seconds 13:19
As if it were Andalusia, connecting the two worlds of history and geography, the Spanish academic and Arabist Ignatius Gutiérrez de Terán Gómez Pineta (Madrid, 1967) - Professor of Arabic Language, Literature, and Contemporary History in the Islamic World in the Department of Arab and Islamic Studies at the Autonomous University of Madrid - takes us on a journey between... Literature, culture and translation, discussing the narrative of the history of Andalusia divided between the two banks of the Mediterranean, and analyzing the cultural backgrounds of Israel’s war on Gaza.
Gutierrez de Teran Gómez Beneta studied Arabic language and literature (listening) at Cairo University in 1993 and Damascus University in 1994. He completed his doctoral thesis in 2000 on the topic “Sectarian relations in Lebanon and Syria from the era of the Ottoman Tanzimat to the end of the twentieth century,” so to the dialogue:
You translated several books from Spanish to Arabic and also from Arabic to Spanish, including important Arabic novels by novelists such as Ibrahim Al-Koni, Edward Al-Kharrat, Al-Barghouti, Bahaa Taher, Ghassan Kanafani and others, and you also translated poetry by Darwish, Samih Al-Qasim and others. How did you experience the experience of translating from Arabic to Spanish in general?
How did you translate the poetry?
Beautiful.
I want to say that I am primarily specialized in translation.
I was originally a translator before I became an Arabist in the very broad sense of the word. My first experience with the Arabic language came through translation. I must also say that I am a sworn translator, and I also translated for a period of time many texts, books, and documents related to matters that have nothing to do with literature, for example, matters related to industry or... In commerce and even in law and justice, I also worked in scientific and journalistic translation by virtue of my affiliation with the Spanish News Agency, which had an Arabic language division in the city of Granada, and thus I was accustomed to various translations, unlike some of my colleagues who specialized in literary translation, for example, including literature, novels, or translations. Poetry, for example, and therefore this gave me a broad vision of the world of translation, specifically from Arabic to Spanish or from Spanish to Arabic, because in the days of journalistic translation I used to translate from Spanish to Arabic, and therefore I have a two-sided training.
Regarding my own experience in literary translation, which is the most important translation without any doubt, as you said, I focused first on translating the novel for the main reason because the novel now constitutes the literary art par excellence, and for people in Spain in particular - and in Latin America, because we always think not only about the Spanish audience but also For the Latin American audience, specifically in some very important countries such as Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Peru, and others - we therefore know very well that the novel is Latin.
Latin literature has received a large share of Arab and international attention.
It is true that there is a great similarity between the Spanish-speaking Latin reader and the Arab reader, even for Spain.
Spain is a European country, and in many matters it falls within the European cultural system, but there is also a feeling that there is a strong convergence between the Arab reality, specifically the Arab reality in the Maghreb in North Africa, and the Spanish reality, and thus the novel helps us bring the Spanish-speaking and Arabic-speaking worlds closer together.
Latin literature is usually published in Spain with publishers such as the late literary agent Carmen Balces
It is true that she was a friend of mine and a friend of a large number of Latin writers, such as Gabriel García Márquez and Mario Vargas Llosa... and both of them won the Nobel Prize.
We posted about it a while ago
It is true that she was very active and she was the one who opened doors for these writers.
These writers were not famous before coming to Spain. Many times, they became famous here in Spain, and this helped them communicate with the Arab world, because their novels and stories were quickly translated into Arabic.
These translations achieved such enormous fame that we would not be exaggerating if we say that the modern Arabic novel, specifically the art of the short story, owes to a large extent to the contributions of Latin American writers, thanks to translation.
We always say that translation opens doors, but it also creates culture and helps develop it.
How did Spanish readers find Arabic literature translated into Spanish?
very sorry.
There is something that reminds us that many times novels and names that we think will succeed remain unknown to Spanish readers.
In general, we can also unfortunately say that the Arabic novel translated into Spanish has not yet achieved the desired success.
There are exceptions. The first exception is always the character of Naguib Mahfouz, this Egyptian writer whose entire works have been translated, except for a few novels, some short story collections, and some books related to his newspaper articles. However, Naguib Mahfouz’s works are completely translated, and sometimes we find two different translations of the same novel, and this indicates However, writers like Naguib Mahfouz are popular and popular.
Likewise, to a certain extent, Mahmoud Darwish in the contemporary era in poetry, and also a little can be said about Adonis, we are talking about authors who have copious translations in Spanish.
Except for these, we may find authors who achieved success through one novel or poetry collection and nothing more, but unfortunately the majority did not achieve the fame they deserved.
On the other hand, how do Arabs - as you saw - read Spanish literature?
I think that Arabs admire Latin American literature the most, because, as I said before, Arab readers find many similarities in this literature, and communicating with Latin American literature is quite easy, and I believe that the language used by great Latin American writers is a language very close to logic and awareness. Arabs.
So there is constant communication.
Perhaps Spanish writers - and of course there are exceptions - but perhaps Spanish writers find it more difficult to communicate and communicate directly with Arab readers.
Andalusia between two beaches
We go to another topic on the subject of history. How do you see Andalusian history - this important era in the Arab, European and Spanish worlds in particular? How do you see the division of Andalusian history between two narratives: the narrative of the North and the narrative of the South?
Beautiful, I always try to put myself in a position between the two positions. I mean that there are two main trends, with regard to the interpretation of Andalusian history.
The first trend, which we can call the Spanish extreme nationalist, always tries to deny the achievements of Andalusian civilization.
He always tries to tell us that this Andalusian civilization, firstly, was not a civilization, and secondly, it was an experiment, an aggressive phenomenon, or an invasion, which is a phenomenon hostile to Spanish nature.
They believe that the Spanish character was almost a problem before the Arabs and Muslims came to the Iberian island in the seventh century, and therefore they always try to deny anything positive in this Andalusian heritage.
If we move to the other side, then of course they say the exact opposite. They say that the Andalusian civilization was the best civilization on the face of the earth, and that it was ideal, and it lived manifestations of diversity and peaceful coexistence between all religions. These phenomena were clear and evident, and development was continuing, and that the Andalusian civilization is Which shaped the Spanish character, and what came after the Andalusian civilization came in contradiction to the Andalusian character that founded the Spanish character.
This side is an exaggeration, and this side is also an exaggeration.
The romantic or romantic side that sees the good in Andalusia and is not able to find weak points, this side does not help us, but the other side that is more extreme, hostile, and also denies history is a side that we cannot rely on.
I also say that Andalusian civilization has pros and cons. It has a long history and expresses stages like all stages in human history, which have stages of development and decline, and there are stages full of contradictions.
But I agree with those who say that this civilization was an institution and very key to the formation of Spanish identity, because we saw in Andalusia in some periods in the most tolerant and most open periods.
We saw urban, cultural and civilizational manifestations that we did not see in other European countries, and the best evidence of this is that until the time of the arrival of the Christian kings who expelled the Jews and then expelled the Muslims, we saw in the regions of Andalusia a religious, sectarian and ethnic diversity that we did not see in other countries, and what the Andalusians provided in a certain period, which is The tenth century AD, and perhaps the ninth century AD, was a very important element in shaping modern European identity, without a doubt.
But there are also negatives, which are related to periods of war, rivalry, and fighting among Muslims themselves, and all of these fluctuations had a great impact on the continuity of the Andalusian concept, but Andalusia for us must symbolize a strong and very important civilizational phenomenon in the heart of Europe, and it is a phenomenon that must We look at it with a positive, neutral outlook, away from politics and ideology.
Unfortunately, there are those who always try to introduce ideology when it comes to Andalusia, and this is a wrong position.
You also have an interest in manuscripts, and there was a discussion we attended together about manuscripts of the Arabic script or the foreign script, some of which reached Africa, as you know.
Frankly, my experience is limited because I am not an expert on the issue of manuscripts and I cannot speak at length about them, but based on this limited experience, we can say that these manuscripts are still a treasure that we have not discovered to a sufficient extent, and they are distributed among countries, including Morocco and Tunisia. By the way, they may possess and store the largest amount of manuscripts. The unknown, also in Timbuktu, Spain, the countries of North Africa and Europe, and also, as you said, in countries such as Mali, which must provide us with very valuable information about this period.
This is a turbulent, somewhat unknown period, which is the period extending between the beginning of the sixteenth century and the beginning of the seventeenth century, and the formation of the Morisco identity and how the Moriscos viewed many cultural, life, and social issues.
Speaking of this turbulent period, how is the official Spanish narrative presented in educational curricula and mainstream media? How does the history of this era present the Andalusian era in general and the Morisco era in particular?
There is something unfortunate about education curricula.
In secondary education, schools, and institutes, the classes devoted to the Andalusian era are very few, often not exceeding one hour. If you review history textbooks, you will find that the chapter devoted to the history of Andalusia does not exceed two or three pages. This indicates that interest in Andalusia is very little. It raises astonishment and questions: Why do we treat this era with such disregard?
Note that the Andalusian era is the longest historical era in the history of Spain (in terms of time span) - and it was not reached by the Roman era, nor the Greek era before it, nor the Germanic Gothic era after it, nor even the contemporary modern era from the fifteenth century until today - it can be compared to the Andalusian era. Specifically in the South, we are talking about 8 centuries, and therefore this neglect of this very important stage indicates some neglect and perhaps political or ideological orientation.
Perhaps this is something we should look into, but perhaps there is an attempt to deliberately not pay attention to this period.
Perhaps in recent years, there has been an increase in interest in this era?
This is true. There are organizations and institutions, by the way, that have a very major role in spreading Arab culture in Spain at the present time, as well as in excavating - so to speak - Arab treasures and the Andalusian contribution to the formation of Spanish society.
The Fonsi Foundation (Foundation for Islamic Culture) is credited with participating in a special campaign to demand official recognition of the Arabic origins of the name of the city of Madrid.
It is a word derived from “stream” to which Latin letters were added in order to specify the name of the city.
Madrid was founded in the ninth century AD by one of the Umayyad princes, Muhammad, and this city was founded by the Arabs.
What is important in all of this story is that this city is the only one in Europe that bears an Arabic name.
This organization and others have been very active in this field in trying to show the Arab origins of the city of Madrid, and also to show the Arabs’ contribution to the development of Spanish agricultural arts, especially at the level of irrigation and agriculture.
As well as architectural arts.
An explanation of the Islamic wall in Madrid in different languages (Al Jazeera)
Thus, we began to talk about an Andalusian architectural form called “Mudéjar,” specifically in Madrid.
Because the irony in Spain is that everyone believes that Andalusia is something that belongs to the Andalusians (currently southern Spain) and they think that Andalusia is a civilization or a phenomenon that occurred in the south only in Granada, Seville, Cordoba, and Malaga, but now we are starting to talk about the Andalusian civilization that exists in the center, it existed in eastern Spain, In Valencia, Alicante and other cities that were present in Catalonia and were even present in the Castile region, and therefore we must return to this historical approach. Unfortunately, the Arabs themselves do not help us much in developing this new vision of Andalusia.
Why?
Talk and don't worry.
The problem with the Arab countries, I think, is that there is no coordination between them.
There is no attempt to unify opinion and position.
Every Arab country sings about its nights and always tries to implement projects of its own.
There is no Arab-oriented cultural policy, so it seems as if they do not care about Andalusian historical monuments in Spain.
I will give you an example. Some time ago, I went to the city of Caceres. It is an originally Arab city located in western Spain, close to the border with Portugal. If you go to this city, you will think that this city was Jewish. Why?
Because the State of Israel funds projects that attempt to restore ancient Jewish monuments.
If you go there, you will find signs and posters reminding you that Rabbi So-and-so lived here or that prominent Jewish scholar So-and-so lived here.
Or that here in this location the Jewish temple was present, but we do not find Arabic posters and banners that say here was the mosque, here was an Arab or Islamic school, here was the market.
Consequently, we suffer from this not only at the level of Andalusian matters, also at the level of language. Until now, we are demanding the establishment of an institute for the Arabic language globally, an institute like the Cervantes Institute in Spanish, or the French Institute, or the British Council in English, and Goethe in Germany. We do not have a comprehensive Arab cultural center that includes... All activities are in the Arabic language, so what about these phenomena? This is very unfortunate. I always wonder why the Arab countries most closely associated with Andalusian culture, which today are Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria, why do they not agree to contribute to these initiatives and present positive proposals and ideas?
Gaza war
Speaking of Israel, why do some European countries support Israel culturally?
And also supports its war on Gaza despite its conflict with modern European values?
The basic issue takes us back to identity.
Many Westerners, specifically the political elites, believe that Israel is part of the West, that Israel represents the West in the Middle East, and that the Israelis are like us, so we can express the situation in simple terms, and since the Israelis are like us, we must support them, while the Palestinian, on the other hand, always represents the other, the other, or the unknown. Who opposes us, and this saying is very widespread among right-wing circles, specifically the European extreme right, which believes that Israel must remain and must be superior to all its neighbors because Israel represents the West.
I wonder, what are these Western values?
They say democracy, equality, moral values, and modernity, and we always encounter this dangerous phrase: modernity.
What is modernity in their sense?
Modernity for them is Western values.
The big question we ask these people is: How is it possible to contradict ourselves in such an ugly way?
Because Israel is now practicing an oppressive and coercive policy that has nothing to do with moral values and no morals for what Israel is doing.
Israel is an occupying and usurping country.
But they do not want to look at this facet of the bitter truth for them.
Therefore, they force us to stop at the borders of the issue, however they see it, and they say, “No, but Israel has democracy, and Israel has very open policies with regard to gay rights, with regard to minorities, and with regard to rotation in power, unlike what happens in the neighboring Arab countries, which are economically backward, while Israel is a developed country.” technology.
Look at how Israel has developed itself, and look at the neighboring Arab countries, and look at secularism in Israel, and look at the excessive religiosity in many Arab countries that still believe in these old sayings that oppose modernity, but we are trying to tell them this may or may not be true. But where are we regarding moral values?
Where are we regarding a new concept of what modernity is, far from the meaning of occupation and exploitation?
Israel is a colonial state, an occupying state, a state that deports (displaces) the owners of the land, even if these owners are not modern in the sense they want, but they have their rights.
Modernity is about respecting these rights.
Modernity is doing the opposite of what we have done for centuries.
Europe has always been a state that practices occupation, colonialism, and discrimination. The apartheid system in South Africa is at European invitation, and even the State of Israel is a European idea.
The system of discrimination in many countries in Latin America, North Africa and Asia is a European heresy, and therefore these heresies do not represent modernity.
Modernity has nothing to do with occupation, nothing to do with contempt, nothing to do with deportation, and nothing to do with saying that there is a developed people who have the right to suppress a people who are not developed.
We have nothing to do with this modernity.
So this is your newness, a newness that has been consumed and consumed by time.
We have nothing to do with this modernity.
Our modernity dictates that we believe in equality, believe in moral values, and believe in the rights of all peoples.
There is no people above another people.
This is a contradiction.
But this contradiction is based on self-interested foundations and principles because in the end everything relates to the neoliberal capitalist concept of basic human issues.
There are important European voices of solidarity, especially in Spain and countries including Ireland, for example. What historical or cultural context makes these voices clearer than others?
I think that Mediterranean societies understand the Palestinian issue in another way. I mean Spain, southern France, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, and Malta. These countries and their societies have a different concept for the Arab world and the Palestinian issue. Spanish public opinion is known for its historical solidarity with the Palestinian issue.
The dilemma now is that this extreme right-wing trend, which is sweeping all of Europe and has become prevalent in European countries, has introduced many trends into the movements of civil societies and public opinion in these countries. These extreme right-wing intellectual trends in countries like Italy have introduced the concept of fear and apprehension and have an unfortunate participation in creating this threat. The great one, which is Islam.
Islam is the main enemy for them. What is meant by Islam?
The matter seems ambiguous because they view Islam in a hostile and problematic way and believe that Islam represents a fateful threat, in terms of the presence of an increasing number of Muslim immigrants in Europe, and because Islam in their sense is a danger and is a reversal of the slogan “Islam is the solution,” and I do not understand it either.
This perspective on Islam, which represents a danger to them, has historical roots in the era of European colonialism in Africa and Asia from the sixteenth century until the twentieth. We will see that the resistance movements and confrontation with European colonialism were essentially Islamic and were germinating and developing in Islamic countries, and the major defeats that the imperialist forces were exposed to. The major ones, specifically the British and French, took place mainly in an Islamic environment, Arab, African, Persian, Turkish, or whatever you want to call it.
This means that Islam constitutes a force of confrontation and resistance to colonialism and European imperial expansion, and this historical feeling has a major contribution to the formation of this mentality of opposition to everything related to Islam, and of course the Palestinians, in their perspective, represent this hostile Islamic element, and they also represent “non-modernity” according to this perspective. .
But Mediterranean societies have another concept and meet with other European societies, such as Irish society. The Irish lived the experience of British colonialism and therefore they can be in solidarity with the Palestinians because they are well aware of the traditional methods of colonialism. Israel is a colonial state in the classical sense, and it is an anti-modernity state because it repeats the same signs of what we saw. From the Spanish-Portuguese colonialism in Latin America to the British-French colonialism in the Middle East, especially in Palestine, these societies therefore know these facts.
Even Italy - which today is ruled by right-wing extremist movements - public opinion is very aware of what is happening in Palestine, but the European political elites are with Israel, for many reasons, the first of which is the wrong civilizational logic and this sick thinking about what modernity is, and because Europe has become politically and culturally dependent on the United States, and thirdly because There are economic, commercial, and financial interests that link the fate of Israel with the fate of Europe, coordinated by the United States. All of these matters combined and others participate in forming such a position.
Source: Al Jazeera