"What the hell is going on here?" Green MEP Hannah Neumann on Eva Kaili and "Qatargate"

Enlarge image

Green European politician Neumann: "My entire work context was contaminated with the outbreak of the scandal."

Photo: Justin Jin / DER SPIEGEL

MIRROR: A year ago, the "Qatargate" corruption scandal erupted, and parliamentary vice-president Eva Kaili and other defendants ended up in pre-trial detention. Now, new documents show that the scandal went even deeper than previously thought. Has Qatar also tried to bribe you?

Neumann: There are always countries that try to court MEPs. And the Qataris didn't just pounce on Eva Kaili either. You have spoken to many of us, including me. Great trips with the best flights and hotels, all in the VIP area, plus the glamour around the World Cup. In this way, they wanted to bring us closer to their own country – and apparently also buy our favor at the same time.

MIRROR: Has this been successful?

Neumann: I, at least, have always rejected these things. They quickly knew that they didn't have to arrive at Neumann with something like that.

MIRROR: And what about Eva Kaili?

Neumann: I've already seen that their travels were different from mine, much more pompous, with more access to high-profile contacts. But she has also hardly said any critical words about the country and the problems there. I don't get sponsored on business trips because I simply have the feeling that I simply can't talk objectively and critically enough about the hosts afterwards. But that's my job as a politician.

MIRROR: Why didn't you publicly criticize all this earlier?

Neumann: A lot of it annoyed me a lot. And the luxurious trips, that was never a secret. I have repeatedly called on my colleagues to declare everything properly – in accordance with the rules of Parliament. That's all I can do formally. And then there were also personal and political disputes when I had the feeling that they were losing their objectivity. Also with Eva Kaili. But I didn't know anything about suitcases full of cash. Then came December 9, 2023.

MIRROR: Where were you when you heard about the raids?

Neumann: In Berlin on the S-Bahn, on the way to the climbing hall. It was immediately clear to me: If they take Eva Kaili's partner Francesco Giorgi up ...

SPIEGEL: ... Pier Antonio Panzeri's long-time assistant, the alleged mastermind of the corruption network ...

Neumann: ... then certain people are likely to be next.

MIRROR: Who are you talking about?

Neumann: I have worked closely with everyone involved in the scandal in one way or another, on a delegation trip or in committee – not just Eva Kaili. The Belgian Marc Tarabella was my deputy head of delegation, I represented Maria Arena in the Human Rights Committee, Andrea Cozzolino was like me the coordinator of the human rights resolutions. My entire work context was contaminated with the outbreak of the scandal.

MIRROR: When you worked with Kaili, did you suspect that something might be wrong?

Neumann: Eva Kaili has already stood out for her closeness to Qatar – especially when there were faults between Qatar and the other countries of the Arabian Peninsula. It went so far that I felt that, as head of the delegation for relations with the Arabian Peninsula, I had to act in a balanced way so that we did not appear unfair or one-sided overall. My aspiration – and also that of Parliament – was for the Gulf states to come closer together again instead of becoming further divided. But when you have people in your own delegation who are so partisan, it undermines a lot of things.

MIRROR: What did this partisanship look like in concrete terms?

Neumann: No matter where we went, she brought up issues that were important to Qatar. She sometimes showed up at meetings of the Human Rights Committee and did her Qatar show. In addition, she has traveled to Qatar again and again, where she has also organized conferences.

MIRROR: Why didn't you, as head of the delegation, prevent such excursions?

Neumann: I'm not allowed to do that. After all, it is a free mandate. Eva Kaili has let off steam in Qatar, while other MEPs have had a special interest in Bahrain or the United Arab Emirates. They then travel there, try to network, to shape politics. As long as something like this is agreed and they don't pretend to speak for Parliament as a whole and play by the rules, it's fine. But Eva drove me nuts with her solo efforts.

MIRROR: Can you give an example?

Neumann: Shortly before "Qatargate", we had a tough conflict. At the time, we as a delegation had been planning an official trip by Parliament to Qatar for almost two years, which was to take place shortly before the 2022 World Cup. Two weeks before the start of the trip, we were uninvited by Qatar. At first we were told that they could not prepare our trip due to the parliamentary holidays, later I was told that the parliament building was being renovated. I was angry, but I didn't have anything to do about it, and we ended up staying home.

MIRROR: What did you do instead?

Neumann: My daughter's room renovated. And as I sit there on the floor, in tattered jeans with paint stains and a green brush in my hand, checking my emails, I see a tweet. It showed Eva Kaili with a Qatari minister. In Qatar.

MIRROR: What did you think?

Neumann: First, what the hell is going on here? I am the head of the delegation, she has to inform me about her trip in advance. But she didn't, even though she knew about our cancelled trip as a member of my delegation.

MIRROR: How did you react?

Neumann: I messaged her and asked to talk. We met after her return. Then came the Eva show. She apologized, her office failed to inform me. And we should now see to it that we can continue to work together on these issues.

MIRROR: In September, in the wake of "Qatargate", parliament adopted new rules of conduct. In future, MEPs will have to disclose meetings with representatives of third countries. They are also not allowed to work with former colleagues for the first six months after their departure. Is such a thing enough to prevent a new "Qatargate"?

Neumann: A distinction must be made here on several levels: The people who have been arrested in the course of "Qatargate" are accused of something that is grossly illegal if it turns out to be true. That's what it was then, and that's what it is today. This can only be brought under control with classic law enforcement. There are also the rules of conduct that we have here in Parliament. We work with them to arrange the handling of gifts or invitations to travel. Is everyone here consistently adhering to these rules? Unfortunately not. This is exactly where we need to start first: our rules of conduct must be followed and enforced. And then you have to close the gaps that still exist. There have been recent changes. And compared to many national parliaments, we are already very transparent.

MIRROR: But there is still no consistent enforcement of the rules?

Neumann: No, not really. In the new procedure, a committee of members of parliament will check compliance with the rules and then make proposals for sanctions, which will then be presented to the president. We Greens have called for independent experts to be involved in this process. Otherwise, we examine ourselves and have to punish ourselves. In a working environment in which you have to work together again and again – in negotiations, in elections, on delegation trips – this is not always easy. I believe that this is also one of the reasons why there have been so few sanctions in Parliament so far.