Gregorio Marañón: "PSOE and PP must agree on a closure for Catalonia and the Basque Country within the State, and then agree with the nationalists"

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• LEYRE IGLESIAS

  @Leyre_Iglesias

Updated Saturday,27May2023-11:24

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See 6 commentsHis grandfather always defended freedom and tolerance against the two Spains. Are there two Spains today? Yes, although, fortunately, without reaching the Cainite confrontation of the 30s, when Spain was an underdeveloped country, with hardly any middle class and a lot of poverty. Polarization transcends the government and the opposition. In reality, it is a widespread phenomenon that today threatens many democracies, not only Spain.

n contributed to the constitution of the UCD, agreeing to the incorporation of the Christian Democratic and Social Democratic sectors to Suárez's party. What is the political center, and where is it today in Spain? In which match?

Albert Rivera's incomprehensible refusal to Pedro Sánchez seriously affected the political center, and, of course, marked the beginning of the end of Ciudadanos. Centrism is, finally, a liberal and dialoguing position that believes that the other is also partly right. Fortunately, there are centrists in both the PP and the PSOE.

How would you define Pedro Sánchez's PSOE?

Pedro Sánchez was the first Spaniard to assume the presidency of the Socialist International. In this context, I would say that the PSOE is a social democratic party with a very strong leadership.

Alfonso Guerra says that the social democracy of the PSOE has been replaced by its pacts with populism and nationalism. Does Guerra exaggerate?

I think it's out of his time.

And what is Feijóo's PP?

Feijóo's PP is being made day by day, with some excellent additions. It is a process of renewal with the immediate horizon of elections.

What should be the PP project?

It should include the search for grand pacts of state. That way he may lose some voters, but he will win others. The sense of state often means doing something that does not benefit you in the short term.

What crisis is our country going through, and where does it come from?

I believe that Spain is not in crisis. Another thing is that polarization negatively affects our political system, which is preventing, for example, closing the process of territorial structuring of our State, which the 1978 Constitution left open.

Should the Constitution be reformed?

Of course, after almost half a century of activity. The sooner, the better. From the precedence of men over women in the line of succession of the Crown, to the closure of the territorial structuring of the State, through a necessary reform of the Senate. Two years ago I reviewed with a prominent leader of the PP the list of issues that would require that State pact of the main parties: the reform of the Electoral Law; an Education Law that lasts and does not change with each government; reform of the public health system; and the better functioning of the administration of justice, to cite only the most pressing.

It talks about territorial structuring... How should it be closed? What would be the most positive model for Spain?

One thing is what you want and another, where we are. Reality rules a lot. I would say that we have a fairly clear problem in Catalonia that goes way back. Another latent, but permanently emerging, in the Basque Country. And then we have autonomous aspirations in other regions, such as Galicia. It will be necessary to agree on what closure can be given to the issue of Catalonia and the Basque Country within the State. That closure must be agreed first between PSOE and PP, and then with the peripheral nationalist parties themselves.

I understand that it is about offering them greater autonomy.

Catalonia asks for a Concert. But, of course, a Concert can only be agreed with Catalonia if the problem is resolved in a definitive way. And that can open claims by other communities.

Constitutional experts warn that we are in a de facto federal state. Maybe it's about adding clarity to that.

I fully agree.

The problem we can find, because we have already encountered it, is the disloyalty of the nationalist parties. How can we trust that this pact can be closed and will be fulfilled?

Because they are interested: if there is no agreement, for example, with Catalonia, there will be no Economic Agreement. The process is not easy, but a prior PP-PSOE agreement would have every chance of prospering.

Will we see a referendum in Catalonia, or a new 1-O even if it is in another way?

I want to believe not, but certainly Ortega's conclusion is unforgettable: if he has no solution, he will have to carry it out.

What has happened in Catalonia?

In Catalonia there was a moment, in my opinion, crucial, which was the new Statute agreed by the Zapatero Government with Convergència, even behind the backs of its own people in Catalonia. And behind the backs of the Popular Party. Second act of the little big drama: once the Statute is voted and approved, the PP does the same: it acts on its own and presents an appeal of unconstitutionality that wins. And then there's another chapter that I find significant and that I detail in my memoir. Two great Spanish businessmen, Isidro Fainé and César Alierta, want to promote a meeting between Presidents Mas and Rajoy to conclude agreements to resolve the crisis. After a series of comings and goings on the agenda that both would address, they arrive at a common list of issues approved by both, but, at the last moment, Rajoy did not want to sit down with Mas. I believe that this marked a point and apart, which precipitated the escape of Mas and its consequences.

Is Catalonia better off now?

The Catalan situation is better today than when Rajoy's term ended. I am not saying that we do not hear pro-independence speeches, but I do believe that in general there is a more negotiating spirit. The problem is far from solved, but it is better.

Follow the linguistic immersion, against the sentences...

It is not acceptable, but here too a great deal must be concluded. Education has to have a state component that is compatible with the fact that different things can be taught in Andalusia than in Catalonia. But there has to be a common core of teaching. The transfer of education was a capital mistake that Aznar made in order to govern. When Sanchez is criticized so much, I believe that his concessions are no more serious than those of Aznar.

Not even eliminate the crime of sedition?

As a jurist I would not eliminate the crime of sedition, but there is no doubt that the law must be adapted to the historical circumstances of each moment.

What should be the relationship of the big national parties with peripheral nationalisms?

Today some criticize the PSOE for the parliamentary pacts they reach with Esquerra and the PNV, for example. But I insist, this comes from before and is a consequence of the rupture of bipartisanship. Personally, I believe that everything that is agreed is good for coexistence, but that we must not lose the sense of the State when these pacts are made.

And with Podemos and Vox?

Podemos and Vox are two parties with parliamentary representation achieved democratically. I believe that there is nothing to object to when it comes to agreeing with them, provided that the issues of a State policy are not at stake.

And what relationship should be had with Bildu?

I believe that there are parties before which, due to their historical origin, some citizens can feel, let's say, in positions of rejection, but that to the extent that they are democratic parties we must assume that they have their path in the institutions. I believe that it is a success for our democracy that these people, instead of being in their previous positions, are today walking the paths of our democracy. Therefore, I will not be the one to deny them the possibility of agreeing, intervening and being represented.

Even if they present 44 convicted of terrorism, seven with blood crimes, on their lists?

Sostres has published in

An excellent column about it. I also believe that the fact that a former terrorist is part of a democratic candidacy is a victory for democracy. Another thing is that, as a citizen, reject the unrepentant murderers who have not requested the forgiveness of the victims, whether ETA or those who perpetrated the Atocha massacre.

You never wanted to take the step into politics. Are today's politicians worse than before or is it commonplace?

There is everything, of course. But whenever we talk about the quality of our political class, I am uncomfortable with the self-righteousness with which we deal with this issue. How do we intend to have the best at the head of our public institutions with salaries below the average positions of any small company; with a system of incompatibilities that will prevent them from continuing a professional career; with the unbearable permanent public exposure of his personal and family life; and offering them a task that is also socially discredited under the pretext of widespread corruption that does not really exist as such?

How should the situation of Juan Carlos I be redirected? Will the monarchy resist?

With regard to Juan Carlos I, I am convinced that the first thing to do is to recognize his very important contribution to the peaceful exit from the dictatorship and the restoration of democracy. There is no future without memory, writes Emilio Lledó with success. That Transition that some tend to despise has allowed Spain to have the longest democratic period in its history and, in addition, without exiles. And then, it would be advisable to normalize his situation and not make every possible visit to his country a Calderonian drama. This is something that must be agreed by the Royal House, the Government, the main opposition party and, of course, King Juan Carlos himself. Finally, it is undeniable that a part of his personal life was not adequate, and that cost him the throne. If there is no matter for other responsibilities, let us all try not to make King Juan Carlos the national problem that he is not.

What do you think of the exhumation of José Antonio Primo de Rivera?

In the way it has been carried out, it seems to me to be exemplary: there has been discretion and there has been a pact between the family and the Government. If you ask me what I think of the Valley of the Fallen, in principle it seems good to me that there is a place that we try to turn into a meeting place, in the memory of all this new Spain that has overcome the war, but I think that is incompatible with the dictator presiding over the Basilica. Maximum respect for Franco's grave, but it seems to me that it is better in a private cemetery than in a public cemetery.

You are a lawyer and a businessman. Is there legal certainty in Spain?

In addition to being a lawyer, I have known the dictatorship for 35 years. With this dual perspective, I have no doubt that we live in a State governed by the rule of law.

Do you not perceive that the Spanish businessman is being demonized by the Government, for that rhetoric that confronts "those above" and "those below"?

My perception is different. I believe that the Government is respecting entrepreneurs as it should do with all sectors. In addition, important pacts have been reached. It is not convenient to make the anecdote a category. Obviously, the Government, any Government, can have differences with employers or trade unions on specific issues. But our political, economic and social system works; Our country is the fourteenth economic power in the world.

Is liberalism in crisis?

Liberalism, in its strict economic sense, is not that it is in crisis, but that it is overtaken by history. What is in crisis is our democratic system due to polarization and, consequently, the instability of its governments. Today the dictatorships of some powers, such as China, have incorporated the capitalist economic system, making it more effective because of its political stability. In other words, our democracies need to regain their stability in order to be able to plan their policy in the medium and long term and thus be competitive again.

ID

Gregorio Marañón y Bertrán de Lis (Madrid, 1942) is the Marquis of Marañón. Jurist, businessman and academic, he presides over the Teatro Real.

He is in charge of Logista, Universal Music Spain and Air City Madrid Sur. He is the author of

(Gutenberg Galaxy, 2020).