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[RFI Exclusive] Dmytro Kouleba, Ukrainian Foreign Minister: "Russia is taking African countries hostage"

Audio 09:12

Dmytro Kouleba, Ukrainian Foreign Minister.

© Wikimedia Commons

By: Sylvie Noël Follow

12 mins

As the G7 ends and the NATO summit begins in Madrid, Dmytro Kouleba gives an exclusive interview to RFI.

On the military front, the Ukrainian Foreign Minister recognizes that the loss of Severodonetsk in the Donbass is " 

 ", but " 

 ".

Addressing African countries, the head of Ukrainian diplomacy confides: “ 

”.

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RFI: A Russian airstrike on Monday destroyed a busy shopping center in Kremenchuk, located in central Ukraine.

The G7 leaders condemned and called this attack horrific.

What's your reaction ?

Dmytro Kouleba

: We appreciate the G7's condemnation of this barbaric attack which is in essence a terrorist act because it kills civilians.

So we appreciate the speeches but we would be even more grateful if the verbal condemnations were followed by actions such as increased artillery deliveries to Ukraine and new sanctions against Russia.

This is the best way to prevent Russia from continuing to kill civilians and defeat it on the military ground.

The Kremlin has just declared that Russia will stop its offensive as soon as Ukraine surrenders. What do you say?

I think these words from the Kremlin are the best answer to the questions that are emerging in many capitals of the world about the state of negotiations with Russia.

This is how Russia sees the process of negotiations.

Russia does not want to negotiate, it wants Ukraine to capitulate and surrender.

This is a clear position that everyone should take into account.

Our answer is simple: we are resisting and we will not surrender.

When do you think will be the right time to negotiate?

When we see that Russia wants to negotiate and wants to do it in good faith.

And now is not the time...

This is not the case now.

You need two to negotiate.

But currently, one of the protagonists, Russia, clearly favors war and not discussions.

Vladimir Putin is banking on the fact that Western countries are tired of Ukraine.

During the G7 summit, Joe Biden said that was not going to happen.

The G7 spoke of solidarity with Ukraine “as long as it takes”.

Do you believe it?

For the West, to get tired of supporting Ukraine would be to get tired of itself because we belong to the West, we had proof of this recently, when we obtained the status of candidate to the European Union.

This is not only a war waged by Russia against Ukraine, it is the war of the Russian authoritarian regime against the democratic world and therefore we must stand side by side in this battle.

If Putin wins in Ukraine, which is not going to happen but if we assume that Russia wins, the consequences will reverberate around the globe.

It is a question of principle: we must prevent him from winning to avoid a dangerous precedent.

It is encouraging to think that Western leaders share our point of view and have promised to support Ukraine as long as necessary. 

President Zelensky will address NATO leaders today?

What will be his message?

Listen to the president's message.

I don't want to reveal it until it's spoken.

NATO membership is no longer relevant for you?

Joining NATO is envisaged by the Ukrainian constitution, secondly NATO has shown that it is the most effective security mechanism in the European area, but for Ukraine to join NATO, its only will is not enough, NATO must also want it.

We have recently seen concerning membership of the European Union, that a historic decision had been taken, but concerning NATO, since the beginning of the war, the organization has never made a gesture in favor of an integration.

We have seen you, President Zelensky and yourself asking for heavy weapons for weeks and weeks.

Have you received enough weapons or pledges to continue the fight?

We appreciate all the weapons that have been delivered to us, and especially when it comes to heavy weapons such as self-propelled howitzers, 155 mm caliber Howitzers, rockets and other armament.

But another reality of war is that we are always short of ammunition and we need more commitments from countries to provide us with the heavy weapons that I mentioned.

I ask this question about the supply of arms, because the Russian invasion of Ukraine entered its fifth month last Friday.

It is a very difficult moment now for the Ukrainian army.

In the Donbass, Russia conquered Severodonetsk a few days ago and entered Lyssychansk.

What is Ukraine's military strategy now? 

To have lost Severodonetsk does not mean to have lost the war.

Although of course we regret this defeat.

Our strategy is simple, it is to maintain our lines provided that we receive the necessary quantity of weapons from our partners and that we produce certain weapons by ourselves.

We have to get balance with Russia, at least in artillery, because the current war is in a way an artillery war.

War is about heroism and endurance and the Ukrainian military shows that, but war is also about math and therefore how many guns you have.

So we have to improve this accounting balance.

How long can you expect these weapon deliveries?

In fact, we can't really expect them.

We need it ASAP, week after week.

But that doesn't mean we're going to give up or let the Russians break through our lines.

The truth is simple: the longer we wait for the supply of heavy weapons, the more Ukrainian soldiers will be killed.

The soldiers sacrifice their lives to hold our lines and protect our land.

So supplying Ukraine with weapons means saving lives and territories from destruction.

You talk about the sacrifice of your soldiers.

Does the Ukrainian army maintain morale?

We gathered on RFI soldiers sharing their lack of confidence in the strategy, their criticisms of military operations, their low morale.

Really, we live in a democratic country where everyone can express their thoughts freely.

I think the mood remains excellent, although I understand that some soldiers are discouraged by the pace of the supply of weapons.

Some do not have enough ammunition to fight back, others are demoralized because they have lost their brothers or sisters in arms.

But, in fact, the most important thing is not how we feel, but the fact that we do not lay down our arms, that we continue to fight but if we are angry, we have no other alternative than to continue to fight.

Do you think you will be able to recover the lost territories in the Donbass?

We do not have the choice.

Those who think that Putin will stop at the administrative boundaries of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions, don't understand Putin.

He wants to take much more, to destroy Ukraine and he wants to create a crisis that hits all Europeans: energy crisis and inflation. 

Let's talk about African countries.

Some of them refused to condemn Russian aggression against Ukraine, others remain neutral.

You and President Zelensky have stepped up interventions aimed at African countries to convince them to support Ukraine.

Why do you think African countries should support Ukraine against Russia? 

First of all because it is, in a way, an imperial war of Russia and African countries should understand very well what it is like to be confronted with a country which does not recognize your identity, your right to have your own country and even the possibility of administering it freely.  

Are you referring to the colonial period?

Absolutely, I think African countries should understand that Russia's way of thinking is the same as European countries that projected their empire in Africa in the 19th century.

The problem is that we are in the 21st century and there is a country that still wants to restore its continental empire.

Secondly, Ukraine believes in the territorial integrity and sovereignty of countries as well as in international laws.

These three concepts have been attacked by Russia's aggression against Ukraine.

So if Russia imposes itself in Ukraine, it will mean that no one will be able to appeal to the concepts of sovereignty, territorial integrity, and the need to respect international laws.

Finally, the third reason is that Ukraine since its independence in 1991 has always had excellent relations with all African countries.

African students came to study in Ukraine.

Ukraine sold its productions to Africa and many projects were realized.

But all that was suspended by Russian aggression.

So the sooner Ukraine wins this war, the sooner all this will be restored.  

In early June, Senegalese President Macky Sall, who currently chairs the African Union, visited Moscow.

He called for easing sanctions on Russia to ensure grain supplies to Africa to prevent a famine.

You said that you are ready to welcome President Macky Sall to Ukraine to explain the Ukrainian point of view to him.

Could you tell us more about this visit?

Is it scheduled for soon?

We are working on the organization of this visit and the President of Senegal is welcome with us.

The same is true for all African leaders.

We are very open-minded and available when it comes to our relations with African countries.

As for grain exports, I am not aware of any kind of sanction preventing Russia from lifting its blockade on Ukrainian grain exports.

It has nothing to do with sanctions.

Russia is simply trying to reverse the roles: instead of lifting its blockade and letting Ukraine export all its grain by sea, which we want to do, Moscow is trying to make African countries and peoples of Africa hostage to its policy of lifting the sanctions imposed on Russia.

It has nothing to do with grain exports.

Putin is making the African people hostage to his politics, these are the facts.

In your opinion, therefore, African countries, as well as Ukraine, are all victims of Russia's actions?

Is this your message to African countries?

I would like all the people of Africa to know that we are all in this together: just as you desperately need our grain, we desperately need to ship it to you.

We have no interest in keeping all these agricultural products in Ukraine, we want to sell them, export them, we want to plant to prepare the new harvest and move forward.

So we are all victims of Russia's cynical foreign policy.

We are all in the same boat.

I call on African countries to recognize this simple factual truth.

Did French President Emmanuel Macron's visit to kyiv on June 22 make it possible to forget the misunderstandings between France and Ukraine?

I would not say that there were misunderstandings between kyiv and Paris.

But when we hear something we disagree with, we say it.

Some have had the impression that there were misunderstandings between us, but this is not the case.

We still have exchanges and a frank relationship with President Macron and his government.

And we very much appreciated President Macron's role in building a consensus to grant Ukraine candidate status for European Union membership.

We appreciate the fact that this is happening during the French Presidency of the Council of the European Union.

We will never forget that, so I think our relationship is on the right track.

Russian oligarch Deripaska on Tuesday called the conflict in Ukraine a “colossal mistake”.

These are words of rare virulence from a representative of the Russian elite.

Are you surprised?

No, I'm not surprised.

Mr. Deripaska represents one of the very rare exceptions within the Russian elite.

For we are now witnessing silent support from this same elite for President Putin.

I don't know if its members are trying to save their money and their privileges, or if they are afraid for their lives because they can be killed by the FSB if they disagree with Putin.

We see no systematic opposition to Putin within the Russian elite.

That's why Mr. Deripaska's isolated voice sounds so loud and impressive.

But it does not change the system unfortunately.

You don't think the solution can come from the oligarchs?

No, I do not think so.

If they were the solution, they would have already solved the problem.

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