Ramy Shaath: 'Either you are Egyptian or you are free'

Audio 08:06

Ramy Shaath, Palestinian-Egyptian activist, who was detained in Egypt for 2 and a half years © RFI

By: Nicolas Falez Follow

8 mins

Egyptian-Palestinian activist Ramy Shaath arrived in France on January 8, released after two and a half years of detention without trial in Egypt.

To obtain his release, he had to renounce his Egyptian nationality.

" 

enough ", according to Ramy Shaath who evokes his detention and the situation of tens of thousands of political prisoners in Egypt.

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RFI: In two and a half years of detention in Egypt, is it true that you were never informed of the charges or suspicions against you

Ramy Shaath 

: In two and a half years of detention, I had only one 45-minute interrogation by a State Security prosecutor.

He asked me what my political opinions were, he told me about the 2011 Revolution and asked me who I had voted for in the presidential election.

I asked him what was the connection with my case, he replied: “ 

 ”

I said to him, “

»

He replied that he could not tell me.

Second, he told me that I was accused of spreading “ 

” on social media.

I told him that I didn't have a Facebook account or a Twitter account and that often people made fun of me because I wasn't on social media.

► 

And indeed during all my detention, I did not cease asking: “ 

And I never got an answer. In reality, it is because I am a political activist and human rights defender, I participated in the 2011 Revolution against the Mubarak regime. But I am also committed to Palestinian rights and their right to self-determination, through the BDS boycott movement.

Finally, I opposed what Donald Trump and Jared Kushner called “ 

” which was an attack on Palestinian rights and an attempt to annex and steal what is left of the Palestinian territories.

I spoke against and I spoke against Egypt's decision to participate in this initiative.

And I think that's why I was arrested...

Is it difficult to rebuild oneself, to renew the thread of existence, after such detention in difficult conditions?

Yes, it takes time. Two and a half years in a 23 square meter cell occupied by 18 to 32 people… At times, we had to sleep on our sides because we didn't have the space, we slept on the floor. The place was infested with insects and disease. There was a small space of 1 meter by 1 meter 50, with a hole in the center and a shower above, to do everything we had to do there.

Yes, absolutely, it's a happy time to be out of there, to be with my family, to come back to life.

It will take time, to adapt, to understand what happened to me and to understand why it is still happening to 60,000 innocent Egyptians: activists, politicians, doctors, lawyers, students… For no reason, except the need of the regime to oppress its people and to use the strategy of fear to block any mobilization.

Do you confirm that you had to give up your Egyptian nationality, as part of an agreement for your release, and why do you think?

Yes, I suffered this blackmail during my detention.

At first I refused, but under pressure and with the need to find my family, I had to accept.

And it was told to everyone, including French representatives, Palestinian representatives and other countries that I could not leave without renouncing my nationality and without being expelled.

Pure and simple blackmail.

It's completely unfair, completely inhumane, completely illegal, but that's their tactic.

And I think the message is: "

”.

It's unacceptable, and my nationality is not just a document: my nationality is my identity, it's my life, it's my family.

I will always be Egyptian no matter what they say.

How do you view France?

For you, is it a country that worked to obtain your release?

Or is it a country that has a problematic relationship with the Egypt of Abdel Fattah al-Sissi, regularly criticized for repressing all opposition?

We can recall that Emmanuel Macron declared that he did not condition cooperation with Egypt on respect for human rights.

I am convinced that the campaign that my wife led and which gathered support from all over the world was combined with the support of the Élysée and Emmanuel Macron for my release.

And I thanked him for this support from the day I arrived in Paris.

But yes, this “quiet diplomacy”, this case-by-case diplomacy, is not enough, it will not end the crisis in Egypt, it will not end the attacks on human rights and it will not free 60,000 prisoners. . Yes, we must do more, we must speak louder. And I call on the French government to do so.

For example, the European Union/Egypt co-presidency of the Global Counterterrorism Forum is a disaster in my opinion! How can you believe Egyptian intelligence's lies about who a terrorist is when you know for sure that they are using terrorism in their "cocktail" of false accusations against the opposition, against human rights defenders, against members of political parties, against doctors and lawyers? In reality, this weakens the fight against terrorism instead of strengthening it.

I call for stronger action against Egypt's violations of its human rights commitments.

And Europe not only has the right and the principles for this, it is also in its interest!

Preventing such atrocities in Egypt is what will save Europe from the influx of poor people fearing their own governments.

This is what will prevent the extremism that thrives in oppression.

This is what will allow Europe to see its interests and investments in the Middle East grow in the long term and not in a fragile short term.

Because Egypt is not stable and will never be stable with such atrocities.

You were released at the beginning of January, and recently other activists were released in Egypt

It is the result of mounting pressure, especially since the departure of Donald Trump, who had offered his support to Egypt and other dictatorships to intensify their oppression.

Now with the Biden administration and with other developments in Europe, it has led to some releases, but it is very insufficient.

And there are also a lot of cosmetic changes like the end of the state of emergency.

You know, in the prison where I was, we had a very small space where we could walk under a large cage. But next to it, there is a huge garden, a large mosque and public toilets. And when a delegation comes to visit, they are told that it is part of the prison… But in two and a half years, we have never been allowed to go to this place! So yes, unfortunately in Egypt there is this false photo and these cosmetic changes that are sold to the outside world.

Silent diplomacy can help get a few known activists out of jail, when there is a lot of support.

But the other 60,000, who are also humans, with their sentences, with their broken families, who are also innocent people detained because of their opinions and beliefs, should be freed.

It is a whole policy that must change, we cannot be content with a few releases.

Eleven years ago, at the end of January 2011, Egypt rose up and overthrew President Hosni Mubarak.

You were then participating in this Revolution.

Are your dreams for Egypt still those of 2011?

Yes, I am hopeful for a better Egypt, for a liberated Palestine and for a more stable, safer and more humane Middle East.

And I will never stop mobilizing for this.

I believe we deserve it and I believe it's better for the rest of the world to have a safer Middle East

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