- I want to talk about a lot. This year we celebrate the seventy-fifth anniversary of the end of World War II. You were born at the height of that war, grew up in post-war Germany and during your life you have witnessed many serious changes. Do you think that since the Second World War the collective psychology of mankind has undergone significant changes, and in what?

- Of course, 75 years have passed. We are moving forward, but living an echo of our past. I still keep the memories of the very end of World War II. More precisely, two memories. Usually people keep in memory events and images, starting from the age of five or six, my very first memories are of what happened when I was two and a half years old.

Shortly before the end of the war and the surrender of Germany (maybe two or three weeks), I remember my mother suddenly wakes me up with my older brother in the middle of the night (and it was cold, there was still snow on the street), wrapped us in blankets and with us two on hands rushing to the hill behind the house. And he says: “Boys, I had to wake you up. You need to see it. The city of Rosenheim is on fire. ” And we knew that it was a big city fifty-sixty kilometers away. And then she tells us: “The city of Rosenheim is burning,” we look, and at the end of the valley fire was seen, flashes of fire. But since the fire was so far and so huge, the whole sky pulsed with orange, red and yellow. Slowly pulsed in complete silence.

And I knew that something very serious was happening. I was only two and a half years old. I knew that this was something very significant and that there was a danger nearby. The world was not the same as before. I was wondering what this world is.

Second memory. Soon after, the Americans came. Germany was getting smaller and smaller. In the east, the Russians won the battles, occupied the territory. In the West - the British, French, Americans. The area in Bavaria where I grew up was one of the last unoccupied territories. Finally, it was occupied by the Americans. Mom saw how I - and I remember it well - first met a black man. We only knew from fairy tales about the "moors, pitch black," and here - an African American. Such a big one - you know, like basketball player Shaquille O'Neill. Very big, very strong, strong. And he had a wonderful voice. Mom saw me sitting next to him on the slope behind the house and talking with him for hours. Then she asked: “Who is this?” I replied: “Amazing person! Imagine, I met a black uncle! And he has the sweetest, most wonderful voice! ” I remember his voice.

I realized that the "Moors", Africans are wonderful people. It was somehow remembered, and to this day, when I see a black man, I perceive him as Shaquille O'Neill or that first black uncle whom I met in my life.

- Do you think that something has changed psychologically over the past seventy-five years, not on a personal, but on a collective level? Has collective psychology changed since World War II?

- changed. Alas, I again have to talk about myself. I belong to a generation that grew up in ruins. We only knew that a great calamity happened. The whole country, all cities were bombed - debris and ashes. And all the representatives of my generation, all my peers knew: something was wrong, and this will never happen again. We looked at what happened, and it was obvious to us - without too much discussion: as long as we are alive, fascism will not happen again. And, of course, it’s disturbing to see that racism, anti-Semitism is raising its head again ... Fascism, ultra-right movements are on the rise. We know that this is dangerous, and we are especially vigilant.

- About two years ago, in 2018, one German foundation conducted a study to find out the attitude of the Germans towards their past. Almost half of the respondents in the study expressed the opinion that something like the Holocaust could not happen again. My Jewish friends, when I discuss this with them, say: “We are not so sure about this. "People need to constantly be reminded of the atrocities that we have experienced so that this does not happen again." What do you think? Are the words of half of the respondents that there will be no new Holocaust - a sufficient sign that the tragedy will not happen again? Or is it necessary to do something extra so that the memory of this always lives in the minds of people?

“I am not a prophet.” You ask if I think that this will never happen again, but I will answer this way: “This will not happen while I am alive. I guarantee. While you see me and hear my voice. ” Everything is very simple: seize power by the Nazis and begin the Holocaust, I will take up arms and try to defend democracy. Maybe I will fall in this struggle, but with the new Holocaust, I will no longer be alive. And while I breathe, this will not happen, because I will provide active resistance. I will arm myself, I will fight back. And only after you see me dead, all this can happen. Everything is simple.

“I would like to speculate with you about human nature.” For all our scientific and technological progress, we see a lot of violence around. What is the nature of this cruelty to others? Does it say survival instinct or something else? Why is this in us - at any stage of development?

- Scientists, philosophers, religions have been trying for centuries to find the answer, but there is no comprehensive answer yet. There is only evidence that violence against each other has been observed since the earliest times of the existence of mankind, the existence of homo sapiens. There are remains of Cro-Magnon skeletons with arrowheads stuck in the spine. That is, people fought. There are cave paintings - say, petroglyphs of southern Sahara - depicting war, conflict between people, armed conflict, battle. I will not say that it is in our nature, but collectively we did not get rid of collective violence. Individual violence - yes, it is always a crime. Murders, unfortunately, take place, but the question is much broader: "Is this part of human nature, collective nature?" Nobody has a complete answer to this question yet, but, of course, we need to be very careful, especially since we now have extremely dangerous tools at our disposal: atomic and biological weapons.

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  • © Hannibal Hanschke

Therefore, World War One became such a catastrophe: the war suddenly became industrialized! In the early days of that war, armies converged on the battlefield with a sort of chivalrous attitude: “Oh! We are courageous and courageous, we will come together face to face like the warriors of the Middle Ages with a sword and shield! ” And suddenly - machine guns, bombs, massive shelling, aerial battles. It was a shock, an extremely deep shock.

And, I must say, the Holocaust shock is so deep, firstly, because of its unprecedentedness.

There were no precedents in world history. There are no words to describe it. Now we have the word "Holocaust", but in fact this is not a description. Unprecedentedness and such a shock - because the massacres, genocide were industrialized. It was the industrialized murder of six million Jews.

- When we talk about such atrocities as the Holocaust that cannot be described in words, the question arises: what can prompt a person to brainwash so much and make him do disgusting things with confidence that he is right?

- The question is very deep. Partly, I think, the point is in a certain collective discourse. Today, for example, or under the Nazis, the facts are less important than those who set the discourse, who manage the defamation of, say, Jews, French, Russians, anyone. And today you can clearly see: it is not so important what really happens, it is important who forms the discourse. And you need to look with great caution and vigilance on the media, on the activities of the press: on the subject of whether there is almost a collective brainwashing. Here it is up to us. We must remain vigilant and think with our own heads.

- According to one of my favorite German philosophers - Hannah Arendt, the most terrible crimes against humanity are committed by “banal” and mediocre people ...

- Right.

“They simply fell into the maelstrom of history and acted as they saw fit, without asking unnecessary questions.” In your opinion, does a normal person become a villain due to circumstances or is he born like that?

- I think very complex factors play a role in this. Yes, Hannah Arendt, if I am not mistaken, was one of the first to pay attention to the “banality of evil." This is a very accurate observation, because it all stems from mediocrity, petty thoughts and aimless existence. If such people suddenly gain power, the consequences can be extremely dangerous.

- What do you think, in our time, when the relative peace has been going on for 75 years, the European consciousness no longer accepts the war in the understanding of our grandfathers? Or how did she transform the idea?

- The war of the past, in which our grandfathers fought, has sunk into oblivion. I think for them the degree of mechanization during the First World War was a complete surprise and a huge shock. However, in our time the scenario of the military conflict has changed, in particular, due to the emergence of nuclear weapons and fast delivery vehicles. I think that a return to the deployment of short and medium-range missile delivery systems poses a great danger.

Here I will make a reservation, in my opinion, culturally, Russia belongs to Europe. Therefore, it didn’t seem so strange to me that the proposal that was included for some time in including Russia in NATO sounded.

Of course, the consequences of such a decision would be ambiguous. Would NATO defend Russia, say, in the event of a conflict with China in the Far East, in the Pacific, and so on? In this regard, everything is very complicated, but the very idea that Russia gravitates towards us (I mean Europe) is true. Poetry, and indeed the culture of your country is one with the European.

- I heard the point of view that war most certainly reveals the true essence of man, our nature. You made several documentaries and feature films about the war. What unexpected facets of human nature were revealed to you during the filming of these paintings?

- I would like to recall the film "Ballad of a Little Soldier", which I shot in Nicaragua. It is dedicated to Miskito indigenous rebels, most of them to child soldiers, boys from 8 to 11 years old. When you see a war in which children participate ... And the children are easily controlled with submachine guns and can use a variety of weapons of war. You do not need to be an adult, strong or firmly built. So, to see this, to see the war in which the children are fighting, is especially painful. This is a real tragedy.

Then, in Nicaragua, it was not propaganda that brought them to the war, but the brutal reprisals that their families faced. Families were destroyed by entire families. Mother was killed before the eyes of an eight-year-old son, and the next day he joined the ranks of the rebel army. These are all personal tragedies of people. As for wars, and what makes people participate in them, according to studies of conflicts in which children are involved, propaganda or personal tragedies are often the cause. In Africa, this is not uncommon.

    - It seems to me that this pandemic can be called the third world war, in which all states are fighting an invisible enemy. Don't you think that the current pandemic has also changed people? I see that, like during the wars in which my grandfathers fought, some people behave inadvertently and ignorantly, while others risk their lives to save others. You will not see this in ordinary life.

    - Yes, the situation will be transferred to a pandemic, because for our generation it seems to be something new, unusual. There was nothing like this from 1917-1918. And the plague, both in the Middle Ages and in the period of Antiquity, we did not have. Of course, the current pandemic will make a difference in collective psychology. Now we have only one option - this is to discipline.

    We must separate and isolate ourselves in order to drain the virus. He will no longer be able to jump between people. We must starve him.

    However, in addition to discipline, we must hope that a vaccine appears and the situation changes dramatically. At the same time, I also note positive aspects: I see how residents of my area help each other and come to a common understanding. The most difficult thing to realize is how the virus spreads, because in everyday life we ​​think in different orders. Imagine you are walking along a street and you meet a person, then another, then a third, fourth and so on. However, the math of the virus is different. It spreads nonlinearly. After you meet sixteen people, the next one may suddenly turn out to be not the seventeenth infected, but thirty-second. And the next one is not thirty-third, but sixty-fourth. In a word, sixty-four people were infected from you at first, then one hundred and twenty-eight, and then within a radius of just a few kilometers there are already a million patients. We are not used to such a scale. This needs to be comprehended, and therefore discipline is needed.

    - Could you, looking at the situation with the pandemic, say that it will cause changes in society? How would you show her if you decided to shoot a picture about her?

    - I do not think that I should make a similar film. But let's speculate hypothetically. The pandemic has shown us what we can do when we work together. We can change the basic patterns of behavior. Not at a time, but gradually we can change our behavior. We are witnessing heroic deeds. On TV, I saw volunteers who volunteered to participate in tests and gave themselves to infect themselves to test drugs. These heroes are ordinary members of society. They come forward and say: "This must be done, I want to be a volunteer, infect me and test the vaccine on me." Such an act seems to me to be an extremely heroic civil feat. This is not just a gesture, because these people can die. And they become heroes only after death.

    - Thank you very much for agreeing to give an interview and share your wonderful thoughts. I really hope that we will talk more, maybe on a different topic. But such an interesting conversation on the eve of the seventy-fifth anniversary of the victory is like a breath of fresh air.

    - Since we are talking about Russia, I would like to say that Russia lost more than twenty-five million military personnel and civilians in this war, and these are real heroes who sacrificed themselves. More than twenty-five million heroes, whose memory will live forever. I regret that it was Germany that brought this catastrophe to the Russian people. However, today we are faced with a variety of opportunities. For example, I have a Russian wife, and we are happy.

    See the full version of the interview on RTD.