China News Service, Taipei, March 31: From what standpoint should Taiwanese view Chinese history?
——Exclusive interview with Xu Hong, former director of the Department of History at National Taiwan University and honorary professor of the Department of History at Jinan International University
China News Service reporter Yang Chengchen
As one of Taiwan's leading researchers on the social and economic history of the Ming and Qing dynasties, Professor Xu Hong, who is well-known on both sides of the Taiwan Strait, has served as head of the Department of History at National Taiwan University, the Department of History at Jinan International University, and the School of Humanities and Social Sciences at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. Several years after his retirement, he is still active on social networks and frequently puts forward objections and countermeasures on topics such as Taiwan's new curriculum.
A set of historical readings that Xu Hong participated in is being published. "Should we look at Chinese history from the perspective of separation or unity?" Recently, he accepted an interview with China News Service's "East-West Question" on what kind of historical perspective Taiwanese people need.
The interview transcript is summarized as follows:
Reporter from China News Service: At this year’s Taipei International Book Fair, the Chinese chronological history book you participated in the compilation will be presented to readers. Editor-in-chief Wang Fansen said that Taiwan has not published a complete series of chronological history books for a long time. How do you evaluate the current Taiwanese readers’ demand for historical books, especially Chinese history books?
Qian Mu's former residence on the campus of Soochow University in Taipei. Photo by Du Yang
Xu Hong
: I took a class from Mr. Qian Binsi (Qian Mu). He said that there is no overlap between history professors. What they can talk about together is movie stars. In fact, this is indeed the case. Most people don’t read what history professors write, but the public needs historical knowledge. Since ancient times, the public has mostly obtained historical knowledge through popular readings.
During the Anti-Japanese War, some scholars integrated what they studied and wrote about it in simple and profound terms. At that time, Kaiming Bookstore did a lot of work, and later merged with Youth Publishing House to form China Youth Publishing House. Wu Han and others continued to engage in this kind of work. They once compiled "History of China" and "History of the Three Kingdoms", which were very popular among readers.
Mainland China has done a good job in this area, but Taiwan has not done a good job in popular reading for many years. In the past, most of Taiwan's history books contained blunt content. Only a few scholars, such as "Journey to the West" and Ancient Chinese Politics, "Water Margin" and Ancient Chinese Society, written by Mr. Sam Mengwu, were unique, but they included There are few books on Chinese history written from beginning to end for general readers.
China News Service reporter: What kind of historical readings do you think Taiwanese readers need to read today?
Qian Mu manuscript. Photo by Chen Liyu
Xu Hong
: How to write the history of China? Everyone needs to be on the same page, especially today. Are we going to abandon our own traditions and become completely Westernized? This became mainstream for a while. There are a few who are against the mainstream, such as Mr. Qian Binsi's "Outline of National History". He advocates that we should read our own history, not only criticize mistakes, but also speak out the merits of our ancestors with warmth and respect.
Chinese classical culture is mostly transmitted orally from teacher to teacher, which also leads to some contents being misunderstood during the teaching process. But the irony is that most of the people who later taught in the History Department of National Taiwan University took the path of criticism. This has led to many Taiwanese students living in an environment that denies their own culture for a long time. If they don't make progress, they blame "their ancestors are not good enough". In fact, it's because they don't work hard.
"Exhibition of Ancient Chinese Food Culture" at the National Museum of China. Photo by Tian Yuhao
When we look back at Chinese history now, we find that the Chinese worldview is conducive to the realization of a peaceful and prosperous life for mankind, and a harmonious society, but this kind of value concept may not be acceptable to many Westerners. Just like Zheng He's voyages to the West, he did not seize a colony or leased land. In modern times, some people believe that if Zheng He had adopted a colonial policy, China might have discovered a new sea route. But they don't understand that the Chinese people's concept is not a line of violence. "A country without conquest" is the ancestral motto promulgated by Ming Taizu. Our emphasis on kingship is not hegemony as the West calls it.
China News Service reporter: Can you further explain the difference between these two historical views? What lessons can we gain from this?
Xu Hong
: Westerners’ view of history is based on their realistic needs. It is objective on the surface, but it cannot escape subjectivity. After 1500, the West became powerful for all to see. In the process, they robbed wealth and sacrificed the interests of others. "The Great Divergence" written by Kenneth Pomeranz, a professor of history at the University of Chicago, specifically mentioned that if the colonies were lost, the strength of the West might cease to exist.
In modern history, China and Japan have pursued modernization. Why did the former fail and the latter succeed? I think an important reason is that China at that time did not have a stable environment, there were constant wars, and there was no strong government. Although there is turmoil in Japanese society, overall the country is unified and the intensity of the turmoil is low.
China has always been like this in history. After great chaos, it can recover immediately after a few years of stability. For example, the Sui Dynasty, after 400 years of turmoil, became prosperous and powerful in just a dozen years. As long as there is a stable environment, every Chinese knows that they must work hard on their own to honor their ancestors. The same is true for today's mainland and Taiwan. With a stable environment, the economy can pick up in no time. Stability is an important experience we have learned from history.
Reporter from China News Service: What enlightenment do these experiences have on how Taiwanese people view history today?
Xu Hong
: Some people who talk about the "Taiwan independence view of history" say that Taiwan would be unlucky if it merged with the mainland. But should we look at Chinese history from the standpoint of "division" or "integration"?
If we want to emphasize "dividing", only within the island, the ethnic minorities in southern Fujian are different from the ethnic minorities in Taiwan, and the Hakka people are different from the southern Fujian people. If "dividing" is emphasized in everything, the opposition will be highlighted, and they will fight back and forth every day. If we look at it from the perspective of "jointness", we are all one family, and if we work together, we can prosper together.
The "Origin·Destiny - Fujian and Taiwan Art Exhibition" held by the National Museum of China attracted many citizens to watch the exhibition. Photo by Chen Xiaogen
The Hokkien word "mutual" refers to doing business together, "I make money, and you make money too." If I can only make money and you can’t, this is the “zero-sum” rule of Westerners. This is not the way the Chinese people think.
This is one of the reasons why I increasingly feel that Chinese values are conducive to world peace, and why I believe that Taiwan’s current middle school history curriculum will have serious consequences for Taiwanese young people. Under this curriculum system, Taiwanese people only care about themselves and not the mainland.
Cloud Gate Dance Theatre's "Pine Smoke". Photo by CNA
In fact, during a period after the 1970s in Taiwan, the entire social science community had a trend of "recovering oneself from history and culture." Literature, art, psychology and other fields are rediscovering traditional Chinese culture, hoping to gain inspiration from it. Including Lin Hwai-min's "Cloud Gate Dance Theater" and local literature in the literary world are all related to this.
Confucius said, live in the present world and rebel against the ancient way. If this is the case, it will bring disaster to the body. What we have to do today is not to copy the ancients, but to absorb the core values of the ancients in different eras and enlighten wisdom.
China News Service Reporter: What do you think of the "Inner Asian view of history" and the negative evaluation of Chinese history that accompanies this view of history?
Xu Hong
: People who hold the view of "New Qing History" say that the Qing government relied on the so-called "Inner Asian culture" to rule China. This view is wrong. There is nothing innovative about the so-called "Inner Asian historical view". It is just picking up the wisdom of the past "Manchu, Mongolian and non-Chinese theory".
Some Westerners have to teach something "new" every once in a while. It doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, in order to attract everyone's attention and become the focus of the outside world, so as to gain the right to speak.
China is so big, archaeologically speaking, the sky is full of stars. The Yellow River Basin is one of the birthplaces of Chinese civilization. Its rise was not the earliest, but it later slowly absorbed the advantages of surrounding cultures.
Mainland scholars are right to say that the Chinese nation is united in diversity. My teacher, Mr. Yao Congwu, an expert on the history of Liao, Jin and Yuan Dynasties, said that Chinese culture has a long history and is continuous. As the saying goes, "When the barbarians enter China, they will become Chinese." As long as they enter, they are Chinese. This can be proved in history. We rely on culture to shape the beauty of our nation. In ancient times, everyone wanted to be Chinese. But now, some people want to deconstruct the concept of the Chinese nation. This is the wrong direction. (over)
Interviewee profile:
Xu Hong. Photo by Yang Chengchen
Xu Hong is currently an honorary professor at Jinan International University in Taiwan. He once served as the acting president of the school, professor and director of the Department of History at National Taiwan University, and chair professor and director of the Department of Humanities at the School of Humanities and Social Sciences at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. Since 2016, he has worked at Nankai University and Xiamen University teaching position. Xu Hong focuses on the social history of the Ming and Qing Dynasties, and has written numerous books on the salt industry, social customs, marriage and family, population migration, urban development and other topics in the Ming and Qing Dynasties, including "Collection of Social History of the Ming and Qing Dynasties" and "Research on Ming History in Twentieth Century China". "Private Salt in the Ming Dynasty", "Examination of the Ministry of Education in Beijing in the Ming Dynasty", "Changes in Social Atmosphere in the Ming Dynasty". He also served as the chairman of the "China Ming Dynasty Research Society" and initiated Ming Dynasty classics study activities in Taiwan.