Martha Segarra

.

Barcelona, ​​1963 Research professor at the

French National Center for Scientific Research

(CNRS) and professor of Gender Studies at the

University of Barcelona

.

In

Humanimals

(Galaxia Gutenberg) she explores our relationship with other animals


The term "human animals", what does it mean, where does it come from?


It is not a term that I have invented, I have taken it from other people, in fact there are quite a few people who use it.

It is a term that refers to that relationship between the human and what we call animal, as if we were not animals, humans are also animals.

That term has been used quite a lot throughout the 20th century, when more awareness of this interweaving arises.

And now it's a word spread around the world. Western thought has traditionally made a division between the human and the animal.

Are supporters of humanity against this separation?

Yes, exactly.

But it is important to explain this well, because it does not mean that all animals are or are the same.

We are very different.

But not only humans from other animals, but all animals from each other.

A bacterium is very different from an elephant, an ant from a dolphin.

And within the same families of species, there are also great differences.

But what lies behind the concept "animal" is a kind of separate category that we humans have created, as if we had nothing to do with the rest.

And that separate category that we have created we consider exceptional.

We believe we are exceptional, not just different, which is true that we are, but exceptional.

And therefore, the other animals do not fall within any ethical or behavioral rule that we can assume as our own within humanity itself.

Does it mean that the separation between humans and animals has served to justify violence against animals?

Completely.

It has served to justify violence and exploitation, which is another form of violence;

not only mistreatment but also the use of animals as if they were raw material, lifeless matter.

Because one thing is the farmer who has 20 cows, or even a hundred, and another thing is the industrial farms, which are the ones that predominate in the West and now also in China and almost everywhere.

These factory farms are actually huge protein factories where there don't seem to be any live animals, and it's where you can see how far we've come in exploiting other animals.

Those who defend the superiority of the human being over the rest of the animals indicate that, for example,

we have language while the other animals do not.

Is it so?

In reality, those of us who see specialists in ethology and animal studies - a slightly broader branch, because not only biologists specialized in animal behavior but also anthropologists specialized in human behavior, people of law, philosophy or thought - is that in many animals (at least those of the species that we can observe more easily because we are closer and because they are more like us) there is also a language.

Each species has its language.

There are people who consider that the human is the only language that can express subtle things, that can make literature... We are all the time deciding what is better based on our human parameters, we are cheating in solitaire, because we are comparing what ours with something we can't understand,

because we don't have the means to understand how other species communicate.

Now there are many books on how dogs or cats communicate, but these are animals that live with us and therefore have learned to translate their language into ours, just as we have also learned to translate things for our dog or cat .

But how do species communicate in the wild?

We do not know exactly how birds and each bird communicate, because each species is different, chickens do not communicate in the same way as sparrows.

This radical separation between human and animal has also made us consider what we call animals as a whole, when in reality they are very different from each other.

but these are animals that live with us and therefore have learned to translate their language into ours, just as we have also learned to translate things for our dog or our cat.

But how do species communicate in the wild?

We do not know exactly how birds and each bird communicate, because each species is different, chickens do not communicate in the same way as sparrows.

This radical separation between human and animal has also made us consider what we call animals as a whole, when in reality they are very different from each other.

but these are animals that live with us and therefore have learned to translate their language into ours, just as we have also learned to translate things for our dog or our cat.

But how do species communicate in the wild?

We do not know exactly how birds and each bird communicate, because each species is different, chickens do not communicate in the same way as sparrows.

This radical separation between human and animal has also made us consider what we call animals as a whole, when in reality they are very different from each other.

How do species communicate in the wild?

We do not know exactly how birds and each bird communicate, because each species is different, chickens do not communicate in the same way as sparrows.

This radical separation between human and animal has also made us consider what we call animals as a whole, when in reality they are very different from each other.

How do species communicate in the wild?

We do not know exactly how birds and each bird communicate, because each species is different, chickens do not communicate in the same way as sparrows.

This radical separation between human and animal has also made us consider what we call animals as a whole, when in reality they are very different from each other.


Do you think that the hierarchical vision that has been imposed in the West and that places the human being at the top of the pyramid is wrong?

Aren't human beings on the cusp?

It's a bit like the discussion about the term Anthropocene.

It is said that for a few years we have entered a new era in which it is man who dominates the earth, a new geological era.

It is true that we have a power that other animals do not have, for example, the destruction of the planet, or at least of many of the lives that exist on the planet, starting with ours.

But I think that this radical separation, this hierarchy, is very harmful, and not only because of the way we treat non-human animals.

Within our species, this hierarchical superiority has also been used to establish profound inequalities.


For example?

Racism, for example, is based on the same argument: that there are human beings better than others by nature, better in intelligence, or in courage, or in strength... We have invented an intrahuman hierarchy that is the same one that we apply to what is outside the human species.

When the theory of races was created - totally out of place from the current scientific point of view - it was based on this type of argument.

People of color were compared to animals, those people were not considered as human as white people.

Today that seems to us, obviously, an aberration.

But it was the discourse that linked that hierarchical vision of humanity with a hierarchical vision within humanity.

Human groups have also been animalized in order to treat them badly.

This is what the Nazis did to the Jews:

first they began to say that they were like rats and then that they were directly rats that had to be exterminated.

Treating someone like an animal is a pejorative expression, because we assume that we always treat animals badly.


One of the fundamental distinctions of the human being with respect to other animals is his ability to ask himself what makes us human.

What makes us human? It is not a question that can be answered in one fell swoop.

Of course, we have specificities with respect to other species.

But since deep down the interest in other species is very recent, we have believed that we have a series of specificities that are false, such as the language we were talking about earlier.

But there are others.

Many people say, for example, that the human being is the only one who has aesthetic or spiritual aspiration.

But behaviors are seen, especially in animals that genetically resemble us a lot, such as non-human primates, behind which ethologists consider that there must be some desire of this type.

And the same is sometimes said of animals that are farthest from humans, such as elephants, which bury their dead and seem to mourn them, something that seems to us that we human beings are the only ones who do.

Your question is very legitimate, but at the same time it is dangerous because as soon as we establish a list of what makes us human, we can sometimes be leaving other cultures or other times of humanity off that list.


Do some animals have feelings like we humans do?

We have no idea, it is impossible at the moment to put yourself in the head of an ant or a bee.

Therefore, we cannot know if they have what we call feelings.

The problem is that we define the world based on our senses and therefore on what we imagine the world to be.

For example, there is a very famous text by the biologist and philosopher Thomas Nagel in which he asks what goes through the head of a bat, what is the world of the bat, what is it to be a bat.

It is a question that has crumb because bats, which are mammals like us but very distant from human beings due to evolution, have senses that we do not have, such as geolocation, and that humans now supply with techniques such as GPS or sonar.

We cannot imagine a world perceived from other senses than ours.

That is the complexity and wonder of life.


Many of those who are against animal rights argue that an animal cannot be held accountable.

What do you think?

That is another human concept, that of responsibility.

First we would have to see what responsibility means.

Philosophers who have asked this in relation to animality, such as Jacques Derrida or Donna Haraway, say that the idea of ​​response is at the root of responsibility.

In other words, when they ask you why you have done something, you can answer, you can interact.

Obviously, we cannot ask an animal that does not speak our language why he has done such a thing.

But, instead, it is clear that animals respond in their own way, they respond to our actions, to our interaction with them.

On the other hand, there are also many people who, due to a health problem or for whatever reason, cannot speak, express themselves, respond, and that is not why we leave them outside the law.

That is not why we consider that they are not beings worthy of being treated not only with consideration but sometimes even with more consideration than the rest.

If animals are objects of law, do they also have obligations? The system of law, again, is a human system.

And the moment we insert the rest of the animals into our system, things squeak, because we are applying a vision of human relations, not human relations.

Obviously, non-human animals that live with us must be protected from mistreatment, and we must also prevent the mass extinction that is taking place of non-human animals, animals that live in freedom.

I am in favor of all kinds of regulations that prevent this type of action,

but I do not believe that the ultimate solution is to insert non-human animals into our world of law, because in this way we are not considering their alterity, their ways of life that are different from ours.

It is necessary to legislate on dogs, cats and other animals called companions and also on animals that are not suitable for eating or for other types of human activities because if not, there will be abuses and the excessive exploitation that we witness.

Something that also never in human history had happened.

there are abuses and the excessive exploitation that we are witnessing.

Something that also never in human history had happened.

there are abuses and the excessive exploitation that we are witnessing.

Something that also never in human history had happened.


Does it mean that today we are crueler than ever to other animals?

Today we kill millions and millions of non-human animals every day, to the point that today the chickens we eat are not even counted per head, they are counted by tons.

This had never happened, never had humanity overexploited non-human animals in this way.

For many centuries, not always, humanity has eaten meat and therefore animal protein, but never on the current scale, which is also causing us many health problems.


But I guess you have to take into account the increase in population.

Now we are more than 7,000 million human beings, and without macro-farms and the industrialization of livestock, it would be difficult to feed so many people...


It is shown that animal protein is not necessary for survival.

We have changed our habits and it seems to us that meat is essential, that it is necessary to eat meat and fish, but in reality other diets are perfectly possible.

In general, the rate of meat that we eat in the world (with all the differences, because what we consume in Europe is not the same as in India, for example) has risen exponentially.

The type of diet has changed a lot, before many more legumes and vegetables were eaten.

In addition, ecologists, and I am not saying ecologists, know that this model of macro-farms is unsustainable, because they consume a lot of energy and cause a lot of pollution.

It is also known that 80% of the antibiotics manufactured in the world end up in non-human animals.

During the pandemic, the mayor of Lyon, in France,

He said that he was going to launch a vegetarian alternative in schools, and many jumped on him, arguing that there were children who only ate meat at school.

But studies say the opposite, that there are many boys and girls who only eat fruit and vegetables at school, because it is much more expensive to eat quality fruit and vegetables than to eat meat.


Spain is the country with the highest abuse of animals in Europe, here 700 animals are abandoned every day.

What does that say about us?

In Spain and many other countries there is a culture, the Germans would say inculturation, of profoundly separating between the human and the animal, and of exploiting the non-human animal.

There is a growing awareness especially among young people, but there is still a lot to do.

What do you think of the recently passed animal welfare law?

I haven't studied it thoroughly, but I think it falls short.

It seems to me that it has things that are good, such as this idea that non-human animals are not objects that we can dispose of as we please.

When someone used to let a dog die or leave it on the balcony for 24 hours without water, it was his dog and therefore he could dispose of it as he wanted.

Non-human animals are sentient beings, and therefore they are not objects, they are forms of life, and I think it is very positive that this idea has been approved.

Because sometimes the laws go behind society, and sometimes they go ahead.

I believe that this law will help a very high percentage of the population get used to treating animals well.


One of the recurring criticisms made of animal activists is that they put animals before human beings.

Is it so?

No. I have not read, seen or heard any animal advocate say this.

They don't even say that non-human animals are to be considered equal.

What they say is that we must treat them with their differences with respect to us and try to respect them in these differences.

No, it is not about saying that we are all the same, no, it is about saying that we are all different.

But this does not necessarily mean that we humans are on the crest of the wave and that we can dispose of non-human animals as we please.

It is not a question now of reversing the terms.

Pope Francis warned not long ago that there are now young couples who prefer to have dogs or cats than children and, excuse me, it seems frivolous to me.

People know how to distinguish perfectly what a son or daughter is from what a dog is, those who have a dog or a cat and consider them part of their family understand the difference without any problem.

They love non-human animals with whom they live in a different way from how they love their sons and daughters, fathers, mothers, husbands... We are capable of establishing differences and having a deep relationship, also affective, with other beings that they are close to us.

And those beings correspond to us, because it is a mutual relationship.

We are capable of establishing differences and of having a deep relationship, also affective, with other beings that are close to us.

And those beings correspond to us, because it is a mutual relationship.

We are capable of establishing differences and of having a deep relationship, also affective, with other beings that are close to us.

And those beings correspond to us, because it is a mutual relationship.


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