"Carry out political reforms": Robert Kocharian - on the future of Armenia, Nagorno-Karabakh and parliamentary elections

- What made you return to politics?

- What has happened in the country for the last three years.

And the strongest impetus, of course, was the war, which should not have happened, and the defeat, which also should not have happened.

We paid too dear a price for the unbridled populism of the current authorities.

And all this just needs to be stopped.

- How does the pre-election program of the "Armenia" bloc differ from what your competitors offer?

In particular, you advocate that if the bloc wins the parliamentary elections, political reforms will be carried out, as a result of which the powers of the prime minister will be reduced.

What will this give the country?

- This is a very strange case, by the way, for elections, when the authorities do not even try to talk about their successes or the reasons for their shortcomings.

Because any elections are still a report of the authorities for this period.

In what state they accepted the country, in what state they are going to the elections - there is absolutely no question of this.

And, by the way, there is no talk of the future either.

We are planning to carry out political reforms.

And the goal is simply to create, to balance the branches of government properly.

Today, the prime minister has far more powers than presidents before him.

The situation is, in fact, abnormal.

And it is necessary to restore the system of checks and balances. 

• Robert Kocharian

• © REUTERS / David Mdzinarishvili

- With whom could you form a coalition?

- Our calculation is to win the elections and form the government ourselves.

Therefore, we are not talking about coalitions now.

But if necessary, of course, we will be ready to agree to some kind of coalition decisions.

- You said that it is possible to return certain territories of Karabakh.

With whom, when and about which regions are you ready to negotiate, whose mediation are you counting on and how do you intend to convince Baku to discuss this?

- The formula is this: if we want a long-term and sustainable peace, then we need to make decisions that will not be very unfair, so to speak.

It seems to me that nevertheless negotiations can come to an agreement on the former territory of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Region, on the borders.

At least here we have a fairly strong argumentation, it is linked to the right to self-determination.

Therefore, here I see certain prospects for negotiations.

In what format can negotiations take place?

So far, this is the format of the Minsk Group.

Events have led to the fact that the role of Russia has become more dominant.

She has always played an active role in the negotiation process.

But now the role of Russia in this process is more vividly outlined.

This is the reality. 

- You are from Nagorno-Karabakh and headed its government for several years.

How do you assess what happened there?

And how are you going to equip the remaining territories, what can be done to restore them?

- The injury is extremely severe.

35 thousand people were left homeless.

Great destruction.

The most direct way is to build, equip, solve social issues.

This requires funds.

The means are the possibilities of Armenia, the possibilities of the Armenian diaspora.

We will try to involve international organizations for a more active rehabilitation policy.

• In Stepanakert

• Reuters

- As for the outcome of the war: why did it happen like this, why did it happen so tragically?

- Mediocre command and control in Armenia itself, mediocre command and control of troops. An absolute misunderstanding of what war is, what mobilization is, what is the formation of a mobilization resource, what is the replenishment of the army. That is, any army, in the event of a large-scale war, only with its human resources, in general, with its potential, can withstand a week or a week and a half. Then the state enters with all its might. There is a mobilization of people, preparation of reserves, replenishment and so on. Here was a complete failure. Absolutely complete. Completely incomprehensible decisions were sent. And so incomprehensible that it aroused great suspicions about whether there were some other agreements here, whether there was treason, whether there was something that already belongs to conspiracy theories, so to speak. And such doubts still remain.

I think they just need to be dispelled by a thorough investigation after these elections.

Therefore, it is completely unclear how they passed Shusha.

Some decisions related to the defense of the same Shushi are completely incomprehensible.

It is not clear how Hadrut was handed over.

How did the Azerbaijani troops, practically without encountering resistance, from Hadrut just find themselves in pickup trucks near Shushi?

A completely incomprehensible story.

And the answers to these questions just have to be given.

- That is, you think that there was an opportunity to stop the war earlier?

- Undoubtedly.

First, there was an absolute possibility not to lose it.

You could have stopped her.

We had such opportunities.

But this is just mediocre management.

And about stopping the war - there was a Russian initiative, the Russian president, if I'm not mistaken, on October 19th.

The Armenian side, for completely incomprehensible reasons, simply rejected this proposal.

The motivation is that, as it were, he will be misunderstood and called a traitor.

We have lost much more than if we had agreed at that time.

They call him a traitor anyway, and with much more enthusiasm.

• Shusha city

• Reuters

• © Vahram Baghdasaryan / Photolure

- You said that in a year you will raise the army's combat effectiveness and in three years you will make up for the losses in armaments.

- These are our plans.

And, first of all, we are talking about the CSTO.

Of course, Russia plays a dominant role here.

And we are a military and political ally of Russia.

And I'm just sure that not only we, but also Russia will benefit from the rapid restoration of our military capabilities.

We had the status of the country with the most efficient army in this region.

This is a certain weight in an unstable and complex region.

We have lost this weight.

And our goal is to restore this potential of ours.

By the way, with such a restored potential, negotiations will also be much easier, much more productive, in terms of the future of Nagorno-Karabakh.

- What weapons will be your priority?

- The conversation, rather, it is already necessary to conduct with our specialists. You know, drones were the most problematic component in this war, where we lost. That is, in all other respects we were not inferior to the enemy. This means, in fact, unmanned aircraft. And, perhaps, even in a higher priority - means of combating unmanned aircraft. These are electronic warfare means, just shoot them down - and that's it. Our air defense was not quite ready for such a situation. And, by the way, this is also the fault of these authorities. Because in three years they revised the plan for the acquisition of weapons and revised it not in favor of the systems for combating unmanned aircraft. We bought planes without ammunition, bought, having revised the plan, systems completely unsuitable for modern drones from Jordan, in my opinion, or from somewhere. But I think there is a very large and corrupt component here.Here interesting circumstances, I think, will be revealed after these elections.

- How do you assess Pashinyan's actions as prime minister during the Karabakh conflict?

- During the war, rather, we can talk about the complete inaction of the Prime Minister.

Because apart from daily numerous interviews and completely empty rallying calls, nothing was done in order to normally fight, provide rear services, and provide diplomatic support for everything that is happening.

That is, we, in principle, were defeated on all fronts.

We have lost on the information front, on the diplomatic front.

And, of course, the most important thing is on the military front.

This is the situation.

Therefore, my score is simply zero. 

• Nikol Pashinyan

• Reuters

• © Olivier Hoslet

- How do you assess Pashinyan's recent initiative to exchange your son for Armenian prisoners of war?

- This is another cheap populism.

We do not live in the Middle Ages, when some kind of transactions of this kind, of a family nature, were used, provided there were some guarantees that some obligations would be fulfilled.

Cheap populism.

I don't think he is being taken seriously by anyone in the country.

Maybe, except for people who do not think very adequately.

- How do you assess Russia's actions during the Karabakh conflict? 

- Russia found itself, of course, in an extremely sensitive situation during the conflict.

On the one hand, Russia is a military-political ally of Armenia.

On the other hand, Russia is a mediator, a co-chair of the Minsk Group, which implies some equidistance from the parties.

And, on the other hand, Russia is Azerbaijan's neighbor, and Russia is trying to build friendly relations with Azerbaijan as well.

That is, the situation is, in fact, very difficult.

Expectations in Armenia were at odds with what Russia can do in this situation.

For her, the picture is not black and white.

She was indeed in a rather awkward situation.

And the only, I think, correct, from the point of view of Russian interests, the situation was - how to quickly stop the war.

And Russia tried to do this from the first day of the military conflict.

All other decisions were decisions in which you win somewhere and lose somewhere.

That is, there were no good solutions for Russia.

The best solution is to stop all this as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, the Armenian side rejected Russia's proposals.

But such proposals were, as far as I know, before.

And the efforts began immediately, literally the day after the start of the war.

- How do you assess the actions of the Russian peacekeepers today?

- The fact that to date there have been no major clashes and clashes, there have been some minor incidents, suggests that the parties accept the Russian peacekeeping mission with respect.

And the peacekeeping mission itself, apparently, works in such a way that it deserves this respect for its activities.

So far, this is the picture.

But there the mandate is limited by time.

Nobody knows what will happen next.

And this is the biggest problem - the uncertainty about the future mandate of the peacekeepers and their presence in the region.

There are five years.

- That is, you think that there should be some kind of document that would secure ...

- I think it would be better if this mandate was unlimited, without specifying a timeframe.

Because he is really creating a problem.

After four years and six months, Azerbaijan may have the right to notify Russia that they are against the continuation of the mandate of the peacekeepers, and Russia, according to this statement, will be forced to withdraw from there.

This leads to the fact that the planning horizon for everyone in Karabakh is limited, as it were, by this period.

• Robert Kocharian and Vladimir Putin

• © REUTERS / ITAR-TASS / PRESIDENTIAL PRESS SERVICE

- How do you intend to build relationships with Russia in case of victory? In particular, your election program says that mutually beneficial cooperation is possible in infrastructure projects, in the healthcare sector, and in the agricultural sector. What other areas can you use to build up mutually beneficial cooperation with Russia?

- The spectrum is very wide. Armenia is a small country, with a small territory, with a small population. The Russian market is huge for us. Therefore, in any direction. Integration in the economy is beneficial. It is beneficial, I think, for us, and for Russia as well. Of course, the lack of infrastructure for this interaction hinders. Here you can do joint projects. By the way, the road through Georgia is Upper Lars. This is a constant transportation problem. And here, perhaps, it is possible to have a joint project, an international project of building such a powerful highway, which would become a very serious development factor for the existing traffic flows. And by the way, I think it would be beneficial to the Iranian side as well. Up to China. This is a kind of "bottleneck", which today really hinders the development of our relations in the economy.

- And what about the opening of a second Russian military base?

- Whether it will be the second or the expanded first, I think it is not very important here.

It is important that the presence of Russia here be accentuated.

In military terms, this should be a modern military base.

There should not be a symbolic presence, but there should be a real, strong presence.

Convincing to others.

- You said that you would close the Soros Foundation * in Armenia or recognize it as a foreign agent.

What are they guilty of?

And is it their fault in the losses of Armenia and in the failures of Pashinyan?

- In 2018, such a massive attack on the army began. And the army in Armenia has always been considered the most successful state institution. People were proud of this army as the victorious army, as the backbone of our security. Attack on the army, attack on the church. It started right away. And an attack on our spiritual values, on our identity. That is, literally within a year, a huge number of changes in the curriculum. And an attempt to remove the national component from them. Every Armenian has some sacred things, which makes him in self-perception, like an Armenian. Here all this has undergone very serious corrosion literally from the first day this team came to power. And I will repeat myself: the army, the church and our national values.

The result is defeat in the war.

It's all connected.

I'm sure it's related.

This does not mean that the people who sit in the Soros office there, or in similar organizations, they specifically planned all this, this is a defeat.

But I think it's just that the remote from this process is in a completely different place.

And the cogs here, well, quite enthusiastically performed, well, each one of his tasks.

Maybe not seeing the big picture and the common goal.

- If your bloc wins in early parliamentary elections, how will the system of international relations be built? 

- First, it will be necessary to restore the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which we simply do not have.

That's curious.

There is a large group of experienced diplomats, but there is no Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

This is also a phenomenal situation.

Let's start with this.

And then we will try to build relations in the areas that are traditionally important for us.

These are relations with Russia, relations with Iran.

This is the relationship with the European Union.

In general, across the entire spectrum.

In fact, we need to build very serious institutional relations with China.

It is already a world power.

If not number one, then almost number one.

There will be a lot of work.

- You are considered a rather tough politician.

Having come to power, what would you change in the management method?

- Today we have a real management crisis in the country.

That is, the state machine simply does not work.

First of all, you just need to set up this machine, and so that it works like a Swiss watch.

This should be done first of all.

Because this is the toolkit through which programs are implemented.

If this tool doesn’t work, you simply cannot be successful, it’s simply impossible.

Therefore, by rigidity, if we mean discipline, precise control, then yes, in this regard, there is rigidity. 

* An organization whose activities are recognized as undesirable on the territory of the Russian Federation by the decision of the General Prosecutor's Office of 11/26/2015