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WORLD:
Mr. Gabriel, US President Joe Biden will give a speech on Friday before the virtual Munich security conference.
What do you expect from it?
Sigmar Gabriel:
President Biden will certainly affirm that the US is back as a real partner and is interested in working with others - especially with us Europeans.
Unlike his predecessor, he is relying on the European allies and NATO, and wants to strengthen them.
Presumably Joe Biden will also address the complicated relationship with Russia and China and not ignore critical topics such as Nord Stream 2.
And he will certainly reach out to us for an ambitious climate policy.
WORLD:
What makes the foreign politician Biden so?
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Gabriel:
Joe Biden is an extremely experienced foreign policy president.
No US president before him has gained more experience in foreign policy than he has.
Unlike almost all of his predecessors, he does not come to the White House as a foreign policy apprentice.
In addition: Obama was a single player.
Biden has a very strong team, such as Secretary of State Tony Blinken and his people.
There is no need to worry about foreign policy, but about the internal divisions in the US.
WORLD:
In which areas will Biden possibly tie in with Trump's foreign policy?
Gabriel:
Democrats and Republicans share the critical stance on China.
For the USA, China is the major, strong strategic competitor.
However, the Biden administration is reviewing the Trump administration's policy and wants to consult with the allies in Europe as well.
This US president knows that in the 21st century, even a strong America needs partners to keep the world in balance.
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WORLD:
In dealing with the Chinese Communist Party, Biden indicates a much more critical attitude than when he was Vice President.
Were the USA, including the EU, too naive in dealing with Beijing?
Gabriel:
I think we overlooked how much China has changed.
President Xi has ended the social opening.
Party and state control everything again.
In terms of economic policy, Beijing continues to disregard the rules of the WTO.
For all these reasons, the US and the EU are changing course with Beijing.
Even the China-friendly German industry is doing this.
WORLD:
Biden's people are not impressed by the EU-China investment protection agreement ...
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Gabriel:
That's right.
But the EU and China have been negotiating an investment protection agreement for seven years.
This is primarily intended to protect European investments, not Chinese ones.
China blocked this for seven years, always pushing for a free trade agreement.
The EU rejected this as long as investments from Europe in China are insufficiently protected.
So Europe has prevailed against China when it comes to fair rules.
In the end, this is also in the interests of the USA.
We shall see how far that goes in practice.
In general, however, the European view of China differs from the American one.
WORLD: In
what way?
Gabriel:
For the USA, China is the great strategic challenger and competitor when it comes to global supremacy.
But that's not why we Europeans compete with China.
For us, the Middle Kingdom is a kind of "frenemy": political and social opponent and at the same time an economic partner to whom we feel, for example, technologically inferior.
In this respect, our relationship with China is far more complicated than with the old Soviet Union.
The decoupling from the Chinese market, as the Trump administration has demanded of us, is hardly possible for us Europeans.
Especially since I cannot imagine how a 1.4 billion people can be put “under house arrest”, so to speak.
I believe that this strategy has failed at the latest since the USA's very close security policy partners such as Japan, South Korea and Australia joined the free trade agreement with China.
These countries have a similar attitude to Europe, only that they feel the hot breath of China even more clearly.
This shows that nobody really wants a pure confrontation with China.
That is why the Biden government will strive for something like “antagonistic cooperation” with China.
WORLD:
Has Germany understood that the motto “change through trade” is unsuccessful with China?
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Gabriel:
What should be successful instead?
The open confrontation?
Former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd recently wrote that one can only hope that the US will pursue a dual strategy with China as it once did with the Soviet Union, namely: deterrence and dialogue.
With sheer confrontation, he says, tensions in the sea routes around Taiwan threaten to turn into dangerous conflict.
I cannot see that anywhere in the world the pure confrontational course has resulted in regimes changing for the better or the world becoming more peaceful.
WORLD:
Russian President Putin is dealing with his critics like Alexei Navalny more rigorously than ever.
At the same time, its popularity is falling.
What does that mean?
Gabriel:
Russia is economically and socially weak.
In a country constantly threatened with pension cuts, reports of oligarchs' super wealth are not well received.
Putin people had to resign after Navalny exposed corruption.
WORLD:
Is the Nord Stream 2 project still appropriate?
Gabriel:
There are roughly as many arguments in favor of Nord Stream 2 as there are against. One thing is clear: Nord Stream 2 is a natural gas project that initially operates within the framework of European rules and laws.
From the point of view of European sovereignty, it is none of our business for the time being.
Europe liberalized the energy market 25 years ago.
The EU gas directive was recently tightened again with a view to Russia.
The pipeline owner must not be the same as the gas supplier.
Those who adhere to this European energy law are free to choose where they buy their raw materials.
The market and the market participants decide.
Should Europe give up this liberalization of the gas market under pressure from the USA?
I think this is a European decision - with all the opportunities and risks.
But it's not American.
The Biden government recently stopped the construction of the XL pipeline from Canada and is now focusing even more on fracking that is more damaging to the climate.
But that's an American business, not a European business.
By the way: Why is Nord Stream actually a problem and not the Yamal pipeline with Russian gas through Poland?
WORLD:
Precisely because it leads through Poland.
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Gabriel:
But it's also Russian gas.
The argument that this is giving Putin money, stabilizing him, then also applies there.
WORLD:
Do you see a tendency in Germany and Europe, according to which - after the four years of Trump - you can lean back on foreign policy?
Gabriel:
I have that concern.
For four years it was very easy for us: we always had someone to blame.
That was Donald Trump.
We got excited about him because he showed us every day how great the contradiction is between our demands and possibilities.
We Germans were particularly upset because our demands are particularly high and our options are rather limited.
I hope that everyone here understands that the new US administration wants to cooperate.
But it too will act less European and more Pacific.
WORLD:
What does that mean?
Gabriel:
The USA and Europe have to redistribute their tasks.
That means more tasks for Europe, not less.
Many of us hope otherwise.
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WORLD:
Do you expect Joe Biden's Germany to remind of the two percent target?
Gabriel:
Yes, and we should stop measuring this goal against the demands of the American President.
The French are fed up with the fact that their soldiers fight in Mali and the German soldiers are only allowed to take photos.
WORLD:
In the EU, vaccination against Covid is less rapid than hoped.
How will this affect the image of the EU?
Gabriel:
The consequence of the wrong EU decisions lead to vaccination nationalism.
The poorer countries of the world are watching the dispute between the rich countries with growing concern.
Offers from China and Russia are therefore welcomed.
China is thus expanding the Silk Road Initiative with medical means, so to speak.
That has to get us.
But I also no longer understand the standards for political responsibility in Germany and Europe.
We can't get the app, the data tracking doesn't work, there is a lack of vaccine, the logistics don't work.
We fight the pandemic like we fought the plague in the Middle Ages: by locking people up.
Why don't we use the resources of the 21st century with a mandatory app and data tracking?
But as it is, we stumble from disaster to disaster.
In Germany, ministers have resigned because of far fewer failures.
I admire the Germans for their patience.