- Today, our interlocutor - Ivica Dacic. Times are turbulent now. Active protests began in your country back in December. President Vucic says that he will not give in to any requirements, but is such rigidity necessary? Will it cause the protesters even more resentment?
“They want Vucic to resign.” But the president is not crazy to do that. Therefore, do not worry about the protests.
I don’t know how familiar you are with our realities, but in Serbia there’s not a situation when the ruling party and the opposition have an equal number of members of parliament or votes. The party Vucic, my party and coalition - more than 60% of the vote, and all who protest - about 10%. The difference is huge.
All of these protests may continue indefinitely, but no one should assume that it is enough just to go to the demonstration and demand that Vucic resign. Power is acquired and lost only by the results of elections, and not on the street.
- The protest movement is now on the rise throughout Europe. Say, “yellow jackets” in France have been protesting for almost half a year now, and Emmanuel Macron is now traveling around the regions, talking to people in order to understand what the people want, what their demands are. Do you think that Vucic in Serbia could act the same way?
- Without looking at Macron, Vucic, as president, has already organized a campaign to discuss the future of Serbia. Everyone can see how many people were at the largest rally of the opposition, and how many people come to those meetings that we organize together with Vučić. At our events 10-15 times more people. The difference is huge.
In fact, there is no political instability in Serbia. We are talking only about various incidents in order to attract attention and increase the popularity of opposition protests.
I repeat: everyone has the right to protest, but one can come to power only after the elections. Thousands of people gathered at the presidential palace - this is not a reason for him to resign.
- I understand your point of view. But in the case of Serbia, is there no reason to suspect foreign interference? Usually, when in any country people take to the streets, either Russia or America is blamed for it, depending on who you like less.
- Probably, some influence from the outside is present. When something like this happens in our region, suspicion usually falls on Western countries. Provoking instability can be good for them - they don’t particularly like governments that make decisions on their own.
Someone helps with these demonstrations. They are shown live on an American television channel in Serbia with the participation of people who collaborate with certain cable channels.
That is why we suspect that there is some foreign influence. However, it is absolutely unimportant. We vote not in Washington and not in Moscow. We vote in Belgrade, Nis, Novi Sad.
- Serbian President Alexander Vucic gives an interview, March 21, 2019
- Reuters
- © Marko Djurica
- If you look in a wider context, then Serbia is not the only country in the Balkans where protests are taking place on the streets. They are observed in Kosovo, and in Albania, and in Montenegro. When you look from the outside, you ask yourself a question: isn't it an Arabic spring in the Balkan version?
- We are not new. I have been in politics for 29 years, I have seen enough of different things and have seen everything on the streets. Protests in Belgrade cannot be compared with protests elsewhere. When elections are held and there are certain problems, political uncertainty exists only if the difference in popular support between the government and the opposition is small. Here it is huge, and it is obvious that the situation does not pose any danger to the authorities.
That is why Vucic announced his intention to talk about the future, about the program. But the program of these opposition parties is unknown. And the opposition itself is motley, there are both ultra-right and ultra-left in its ranks. They all share the hatred of Vucic, but support is not enough to cause political instability. Therefore, in Serbia, you will not see the scenario of the overthrow of state power as a result of mass protests.
In our history, this happened only once - on October 5, 2000 (protests that ended with the overthrow of President Slobodan Milosevic . - RT ).
- Plus there is the eternal question of Kosovo. Most recently, the Kosovo president said that, despite the differences, Serbia and Kosovo may come to an agreement. Do you share his enthusiasm?
- Not. When the Albanians offer an agreement, they expect that we recognize Kosovo, and they do not accept other options. 11 years ago they declared independence, but they could not finally finalize their state status. We did not receive membership in either the UN, or the OSCE, or the Council of Europe. Five EU countries do not recognize Kosovo. So without a compromise to the final decision not to come.
If Albanians were willing to compromise, I would share their enthusiasm. Unfortunately, they are not ready - and therefore they imposed 100% duty on goods from Serbia and also from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Until these duties are canceled, there will be no dialogue. So, I repeat, I can not share this enthusiasm.
But I can say for sure: Serbia does not recognize the unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo ever. We do not recognize such an act. We are ready to seek compromises and agreements. Let everyone present their views on how a compromise can be. If it does not exist, then, I am afraid, we will have to wait for agreements for a very long time.
- Let's talk about the compromise inside Kosovo. The local parliament approved a so-called platform for dialogue with Serbia. And she was immediately boycotted by the Kosovo opposition. This platform is potentially useful, but can uncompromising Kosovo politicians destroy it?
- Not only the opposition, but also the Kosovo authorities have created a platform against the dialogue, because it excludes any compromise. Their platform talks about Serbian crimes, that Serbia should pay reparations. Being an artificially created state, Kosovo believes that everything is already over. When they come out of the captivity of their own delusions, they will have to deal with the harsh reality.
13 countries have already withdrawn their recognition of Kosovo, that is, it no longer has a majority to gain membership in international organizations. No agreement or solution is possible without the consent of Serbia.
They do not want a compromise, they need their maximum, but for us this is unacceptable. Therefore, it should be clear to everyone that the Albanians are the main obstacle to reaching agreements.
In addition, I would like to point out that no nation in Europe has two states. The Albanians of the two states can not be.
In practice, this means the end of a utopian idea. Kosovo is not a state. Anyone who believes that Kosovo should be a state supports the idea of “Great Albania”, since the unification of Kosovo and Albania is only a matter of time. There is no dilemma here. And this is the main threat to stability in the region.
- Demonstrators at protest actions against Serbian President Alexander Vucic and his government in Belgrade, April 13, 2019
- Reuters
- © Marko Djurica
- Mr. Minister, you have already noted that 100% duties have been introduced for all Serbian goods in Kosovo. Local people suffer because of this, but the authorities say: “We will not cancel them until Serbia recognizes our independence.” It will not, right? Serbia declares: “Until the duties are canceled, we will not even begin negotiations.” Is it a dead end?
“Pristina is responsible for this.” Indeed, until the duties are canceled, the resumption of negotiations is impossible. 100% - where in the world have you seen this? This proves that Pristina does not want to establish economic cooperation with us.
They say they will cancel duties when Serbia recognizes Kosovo. This will not happen. If they do not cancel, then there is nothing to talk about the continuation of the dialogue. And we will apply our measures against them. President Vucic announced that if the duties are not abolished within six months (until then, we will wait), Serbia will take countermeasures.
- Recently, on everyone’s lips, there is the option of exchanging territories, through which Kosovo will transfer to Serbia a northern region dominated by the Serbian population and receive a southern region dominated by Albanian from it - and everyone will be happy. But the European Union considers such a development unfavorable, because it can open a Pandora’s box for the Balkans. What do you say?
- EU countries had to think about it when they recognized Kosovo. Do you know what they say? What can be no change of boundaries. What boundaries? According to the internationally recognized borders of Serbia, Kosovo is part of it. Pandora's box was opened by those who recognized Kosovo, and now they are trying to change everything.
We offered solutions to the problem between Belgrade and Pristina, but they were never considered. The idea just hung in the air - there was no substantive discussion.
There is no risk of this being a problem for others. In the end, when they recognized Kosovo, they declared that this was a unique case from a legal point of view. Now they claim that a precedent will arise for other countries. This is hypocrisy and double standards.
Those who recognized Kosovo do not have the right to lecture us about the immutability of borders, because they themselves were the first to violate this principle. What are the borders of Kosovo? What other boundaries? It has never been a state, but has always been part of Serbia, part of Yugoslavia.
- If I understand correctly, Serbia is not even seriously considering this popular version of the exchange of territories?
- Listen, this is not a territory exchange. We never talked about this. But theoretically we are ready to consider any possible compromise solution. Serbia considers Kosovo its part. Albanians are sure that Kosovo should be an independent state entirely. Where is the trade-off between these two positions?
There is another circumstance - real life. The real territory in which Serbs live in Kosovo. Over it, Pristina has almost no power. That's the problem. If we want a compromise, then we need to look for a realistic solution that does not create problems.
But this topic seems too far away, we have not reached this point yet. Now we are discussing only the problem of fees. And the solution to the problem is not visible.
While some create difficulties, others lecture us about the exchange of territories. Just unheard of! But a year ago, Belgium and the Netherlands signed an agreement on the exchange of territories.
- Celebration of the 10th anniversary of Kosovo’s independence in Pristina, February 17, 2018
- Reuters
- © Ognen Teofilovski
- Kosovo affairs certainly lead to Albania. Now pro-Albanian protests are taking place in Kosovo. Tirana voiced the idea of joining Kosovo on the rights of one of its regions, even at the cost of Albanian membership in the European Union. Do you think this is possible?
- We talked about this from the very beginning. The main goal here is “Great Albania”. I don’t know if you remember, but when the speaker of the Macedonian parliament, Talat Jaferi, first appeared on television, an Albanian stood on the table next to the Macedonian flag. And in Kosovo there are ten times more Albanian flags than Kosovo flags. Kosovar as a nation does not exist. Albanians and Serbs live there. That is why for the stability in the region it is a threat.
The European Union does not see that the countries that recognized Kosovo gave Albania grounds in principle for such discussions. Now the behavior of Albania meets with serious objections, but we do not see a direct condemnation or a decisive reaction. Brussels does not condemn Albania or any other country in the same way as Serbia and the actions of the Serbs. So much for double standards. What would Serbia claim that the Republika Srpska, located in Bosnia and Herzegovina, should become part of Serbia!
- You say that now “people with a blurred consciousness” can expel Serbs from the north of Kosovo, as in 1995 it happened in Croatia. Who do you mean? Who are these “people with blurred consciousness”?
- I'm talking about Albanians. There are people in the Kosovo leadership who might come up with such thoughts. So the problem is serious. If the forces of KFOR, that is, the international “Forces for Kosovo”, will not react, then Serbia will have to react, because this is a factor of political and regional instability.
That is why I am talking about the existence of a threat and instability in Kosovo - and that is why it is important to resolve this issue and achieve a certain understanding between Belgrade and Pristina.
We loudly warn of such a danger. It is important to tell the world community in advance that Belgrade will not quietly watch Serbs being killed in the north of Kosovo, which, unfortunately, has happened in Croatia before.
- Let's talk about NATO. After the NATO bombing, 20 years have passed. I talked with your president, and he said: "We have forgiven, but we will not forget what happened." Today Serbia is cooperating with NATO, conducting joint exercises. Is it easy for the Serbian people to accept that?
- We cooperate mainly to maintain normal relations - after all, NATO countries surround Serbia, the alliance also leads the security forces in Kosovo. Even under the Brussels Agreement, NATO and KFOR are obliged to ensure that Albanian armed forces do not attack Serbs living in the north.
But our cooperation is limited by military neutrality. We do not want to join and will not join the alliance. As for the NATO aggression, our people still treat it very negatively. This is a war crime committed against Serbia and the Serbian people.
- You are right, NATO countries already surround Serbia, and with time more Balkan countries will join the alliance. Such is the reality, because they strive for it. How hard will it be for Serbia to just stand aside and watch the rest unite?
- Just like before. We have long been surrounded. The situation is familiar to us. It used to be the Warsaw Pact, and we were not in it. We prefer a policy of military neutrality and will continue this course.
If you look at the opinion of our people, the overwhelming majority of Serbs are against joining NATO. And when Vucic says that we can forgive, he means that we will cooperate with the countries that bombed us, but we cannot forget this. At least our generation will not forget.
- We turn to the economy. Recently, your construction minister called China the best friend of Serbia. Now on the European continent, China is treated with caution, trying to limit its investment in Europe. Serbia is already under pressure from the European Union because of its relations with Russia. Do you think that because of the close friendly relations between Belgrade and Beijing, they can put even more pressure on you?
- So it will be. For us, this is customary, and we are resistant to pressure. The West will have objections for any reason. We have introduced a visa-free regime with China - the West is against. Introduced it with India and Indonesia - the West against. With Russia - again against. Signing a free trade agreement with the Eurasian Economic Union is also dissatisfied. Moreover, they are not satisfied only with situations when Serbia is establishing relations. When Croatia, Hungary, Germany are friends with China, the West does not object.
These are double standards. Just as in the case of Russian gas. You can use the gas flowing through the Nord Stream to Germany and the North European countries, but you shouldn’t buy Russian gas to the Serbs - it affects them negatively! That is, the Germans and others are not affected! Double standards. But we face them all the time.
- You anticipated my final question. Another topic on which the opinions of Serbia and the EU diverge is the Turkish Stream gas pipeline, which will flow from Russia to the EU through Turkey and the Balkans. The European Union is very wary of him, but your Energy Minister says that Serbia will not yield to any pressure. We heard the same thing from Bulgaria when it came to the South Stream. But what happened afterwards! Are you sure that this will not happen in the case of the Turkish Stream and Serbia?
- Companies that will be engaged in infrastructure construction and gas distribution are now organized differently. But I completely agree with you, the pressure is tremendous. Everybody acted against South Stream. On the other hand, what are the consequences? Turkey joined the project - and now it is called the “Turkish Stream”.
Serbia has finished all the paperwork, and the laying of 400 km of the gas pipeline in our country has already begun. I hope this time in Bulgaria everything will be fine and there will be no obstacles. Of course, this is the main cause of political pressure on Serbia, but nobody offers us gas anymore.