Voice # 90 - Conservative than Merkel? The 100-day balance of the Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer
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Her own style - this is what Annegret Kramp Karrenbauer promised in her application speech at the party congress of the CDU in December. In the meantime, the Saarlander has been in office for almost 100 days. What has the new woman profiled at the CDU top? And how clearly sets herself apart from her predecessor Angela Merkel?
In the new podcast episode we talk about it with colleague Ralf Neukirch from SPIEGEL, who closely monitored Kramp Karrenbauers first weeks in office. And we hear a young CDU member who is not taken by Annegret Kramp-Karren Bauer's supposedly conservative course.
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Yasemin Yüksel: [00:00:01] Welcome to "Stimmenfang", the political podcast of SPIEGEL ONLINE. I am Yasemin Yüksel.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:00:10] AD: Voting is presented to you today by the Vereinigte Lohnsteuerhilfe eV, the VLH. With one million members and around 3,000 counseling centers nationwide, VLH is the market leader and thus Germany's largest income tax assistance association. Anyone who has no desire or time to take care of the tax return, lets them simply by the experts. Because the VLH guarantees you the tax benefits that you are entitled to. Voicemail listeners now save the recording fee with the podcast code. An advice center in your area can be found at www.vlh.de.
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:00:53] I have read a lot what I am and how I am. Mini. A copy. A simple 'keep it up'. Dear delegates, I stand here the way I am and the way life has shaped me, and I am proud of that.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:01:06] your own style. This is what Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer promised in her application speech at the party congress of the CDU in December. Now the Saarlander has been in office for 100 days. What has the new woman profiled at the CDU top? How clearly does she set herself apart from her predecessor Angela Merkel? This is what I'm talking about today with my colleague Ralf Neukirch. Ralf Neukirch writes for SPIEGEL about the Union. Hello Ralf, I am very glad that you are there.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:01:31] Hello Yasemin.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:01:32] How would you, Ralf, judge from the perspective of the political observer these first 100 days of Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer at the head of the CDU? How is your balance?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:01:44] I would say it's an ambivalent record. For one thing, I think she did a pretty good job. Immediately after their election, there was the fear that the CDU, because the election was so close, that would be such a ordeal for the CDU. That there are now two camps, the Merz camp and the Kramp-Karrenbauer camp, and that basically what should be achieved with this election, namely to pacify the party so that it would not be achieved and I think so well managed to prevent that. So there are not really two camps anymore. Of course, there are still content camps, but the fact that Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer is the new party leader, which is now widely accepted even among the Merz supporters. And she did that quite skillfully. Of course, there is a second aspect: how is it perceived outside now, even beyond one's own party? And I would say that it's easy to see how difficult it is to be only party leader and not have office, not political. She tries to break away from Angela Merkel, on some points she has succeeded, but I do not think that she has managed to really gain a profile, which now goes beyond people who are now very interested in the CDU So they are generally politically interested. Her contours are still very blurry and it will be very, very difficult to change that at all, I think.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:03:05] You had - I looked it up - after Annegret Kramp-Karren Bauer's shortlist for SPIEGEL ONLINE: "Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer is in many ways more conservative than Merkel ever was." Has she confirmed you in your judgment now in the last 100 days?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:03:20] So I think if you just take your failed carnival joke I think so.
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:03:25] Who was in Berlin recently? You see the latte macchiato faction that introduces the toilets for the third sex. This is for the men who do not yet know if they can still stand while peeing or have to sit. In between is this toilet.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:03:47] Such a joke, no matter how you find it now, but it would not have occurred to Angela Merkel. That's the way it is - to make fun of it or to take it as a topic for a joke, I do not think that's what it is in its worldview. I think that will come only when you actually have a more conservative view of many things, as Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer has just. Although you have to say that with her - it seems to me that a lot of the conservatism that she now keeps so openly, as if that was a bit of a trick. Obviously, it is quite clear that, surprisingly enough, she has the liberal wing of the party, even if she is not as liberal in many respects as Angela Merkel, while the conservative wing has more likely to alienate her and of course she wants to win it and therefore If she bears her conservatism now, sometimes I find it very demonstrative.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:04:35] Can you describe what she has done in the past 100 days? You may also like to describe. What did you actually do?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:04:42] I think the most salient event was certainly this workshop talk about refugee policy, because that was also the area that most tore the party apart.
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:04:52] All of us, and that was the starting point for this conversation, felt very clearly that what happened in September 2015 and in the episode was an absolute exceptional situation.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:05:06] I found it interesting that you said in this speech "the Union as a party". The Union is actually not a party, but two parties - CDU and CSU - and the crack was above all synonymous between parts of the CDU and the CSU and the kitten I think she's quite well.
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:05:20] It depends on the Union. The Union, both CDU and CSU, are the parties that are able to basically define the 'and'. This combination of humanity on the one hand and hardship in the sense of consistency on the other hand.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:05:37] Through this workshop talk, in which actually nothing came out, but in which all times had the feeling that they should now say what they want. In which then sometimes the word 'border closure' fell without anyone hysterically gasped. That somehow made the party feel like there's someone who understands our concerns better than Angela Merkel understood them. Of course, nothing has changed at all, and nothing has changed in practical politics either. But that's also the only example I can think of right now, where she really played a strong role. She has, of course, spoken on all sorts of topics: from the basic pension to Europe. But I think that's all stuff that has not been perceived either in the party or beyond, but what has really been perceived was this conversation about refugee policy. However, that was indeed the issue that occupied the party the most in recent years.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:06:29] Before the election, I remember, many, even political observers, called them a kind of mini-Merkel. Are they or were we wrong with this attribution?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:06:41] So if I may speak on my own behalf, I think so
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:06:44] I ask for that, Ralf.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:06:46] I mean to remember always writing that she is not a mini-Merkel. It is not really that. It is, of course, very similar in one respect to Angela Merkel, in her whole calm, balancing way. She has, I think, something not so strongly polarizing. Merkel does not have that either, but from her whole view of the world above all of her whole origin: Catholic, from the Saarland, from the old West. She is basically of the whole origin and also of the way she looks at the politics, old CDU and Angela Merkel is exactly the opposite. And that's why I think that's why she is not a mini-Merkel. The impression I think above all on the basis of externalities, the way of speaking, and the appearance of course. They are also a bit similar externally as type of woman. I think that's why it felt like she was some sort of mini Merkel.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:07:32] As with many politicians, I think it's important to understand where they come from in order to be able to classify their style of politics. I think you share a certain relationship with the Saarland, at least with Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer. Could you explain to us what we need to know about the Saarland in order to better understand the politician Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:07:52] I am indeed - you could even say half Saarlanders, because my father comes from the Saarland and I was often there in my childhood. I believe what you need to know about the Saarland: a) that it is a very small state. Everyone knows each other and everyone knows Annegret just as everyone knew Oskar before. This is a federal state in which politically -.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:08:13] Oskar Lafontaine for our younger podcast listeners.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:08:15] Exactly. This is a federal state where politics is very immediate. Where you have a direct contact with the people, which I think is not bad, which perhaps explains why so many successful politicians from the Saar come, which is very surprising given the size of the state. It is then, which I think is still important, a very conservative or catholic-liberal state. So that's pretty much the same attitude embodied by Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, and of course it's kind of right in one way or another - now the Saarlanders will probably cry out - but a provincial state. There is no serious city in the Saarland.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:08:55] I should never have said that as Hessin, but you as a half Saarlander can say that.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:08:58] Yes, as a half Saarlander, who is after all really Cologne, I can say that. Cologne has more inhabitants than the entire Saarland. Of course, that also shapes the politics and the view you have on politics. And frankly, I think a CDU politician who would have come from Cologne or from Munich or from Berlin, would be such a joke, as Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer has done in the carnival, probably not undermined. It all matters when you come from such a federal state, I think.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:09:26] The interesting thing is that Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer reacts almost a touch from time to time when she is referred to this "provinciality" of the Saarland. I remember a scene when she was a guest on the talk show with Anne Will and she said:
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:09:42] That's really true - that's what I feel is disrespectful to the Saarlanders - objection: not to the Saarlanders - but to the Saarlanders who come from a region that has been around for decades contributed to the prosperity of Germany, which has fallen into a harsh structural change, which, incidentally, has not been managed politically for over fifteen years - whether one argues about it or not - and moreover not by the representatives of my party.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:10:08] Kramp-Karrenbauer's origin from the Saarland, does it mean that we underestimate her from time to time?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:10:14] I think that's definitely how it is. That was already the case with Helmut Kohl. Helmut Kohl was also the classic case of the provincial politician, who somehow came to Berlin and has not taken anyone seriously for a long time, including his opponents, to their great detriment. And that's certainly the case with Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer. In addition, of course, there is also this dialect, which does not seem particularly cosmopolitan, which you still hear her.
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:10:39] "So Berlin is weird, I'm all like the babble, it's not kehn Saarland, nor even the most basic words, the basic rules of human conversation Berlin can not get the datt on it.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:11:03] Still, that does not mean that she can not be a very capable and good politician, but that's true, I also believe that this provincial background leads to being her often underestimated. Now, of course, this reproach is that she is from Saarland - can you be Chancellor? The question is not "can you as Saarland Chancellor?", But you can, if you have governed such a small country - that's what it's all about - that has less than a million inhabitants, then you're really ready for a country like to govern the Federal Republic of Germany with its 80 million and so on. This is usually the criticism and the question is not unjustified, but you could honestly put someone from Schleswig-Holstein or from Rhineland-Palatinate, who wants to become Chancellor, just as.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:11:46] As a political correspondent, as a political observer, you also meet with many, many politicians from the CDU. How is there talked about Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer? How is the tenor? What do you hear?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:12:00] I would say these are two aspects. One is quite respectful, so one recognizes that she made a very courageous decision when she resigned her job as Saarland's Prime Minister and went to Berlin with nothing more than the position of secretary-general and then managed to become party chairman , That was all natural, of course, and if she had not, it would have ended her career. That is already recognized. The other is such a thing as one should say, such a certain doubt. So this question "Can she really?", Which is not answered for many and of course, just can not answer at the moment. There are offices - Chancellor - that's what it's all about, if someone knows that, if he has the office and not before. And her life so far gives hints that she might be able to, but certainly you can not be there and that is this kind of doubt that I find in many conversations, when talking to people.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:12:56] The key word doubt, we'll keep that in mind. I met a young woman for this episode who is a member of the CDU and interestingly met her for a previous podcast episode at one of the regional conferences here in Berlin when Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, Friedrich Merz and Jens Spahn were involved Office of the party leader. And Sandra Sperber had talked to her then, and she was quite critical, not quite convinced that Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer could be the right candidate.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:13:26] Ms. Lukosek, I remember at the regional conference when you talked to colleague Sandra Sperber. They said: "Yes, there is already a sort of separation pain in terms of the Chancellor, who withdraws from the CDU-top Do you miss Angela Merkel at the position a bit?
Sandra Lukosek: [00:13:43] I notice very much that she has retreated a lot, that she thinks I know that now AKK is able to establish and profile the space and also to work on a position. Of course she has now said that I have done what she was expected to do or was always told that she has now become more conservative or perhaps has not become, but the CDU is now profiling more in that direction.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:14:10] How do you rate that? Is that the direction you also wish for the party?
Sandra Lukosek: [00:14:15] I could not say that now. Of course, their position on marriage for all, and now also for intersexuals and also for homosexuals is, of course, from Berlin's point of view, I must say, not always comprehensible. I think she already has a lot of the all-German CDU glasses and thinks of a lot of voter groups and also supporter groups who, of course, think a lot more religious and much more conservative.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:14:42] Under Angela Merkel, the CDU has taken quite progressive positions on some issues. A keyword is marriage for all. Under Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer is now just to observe that the party is there simply back in the value more conservative direction. How do you like that?
Sandra Lukosek: [00:14:59] Yeah, that's the point that I discuss most with friends. We always disagree on how much strategy this is and how much it stands, so to speak. Now I've been living in Berlin for ten years, which has changed me again, which makes it harder for me, of course, when it comes to marriage issues for everyone or the role of women. Since I have a different picture on things, because I was also very emancipated and could grow up free. And now that's something I'm missing more and more, or the gap is getting clearer and clearer to me, that actually we're not really discussing exactly the topics - conservative feminism - and not really letting it go. That would be something I still lack in the CDU.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:15:47] Ralf, I found interesting in the interview with Ms. Lukosek that she thinks I stand exactly for this younger, metropolitan CDU to which Merkel has also made the CDU under her leadership. And Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer seems to have a different profile now. And there a member like Mrs. Lukosek is not really found again. Is there a danger that AKK will also offend some members with their course?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:16:12] The danger, of course, is clear. Although I would first like to say that Ms. Merkel has indeed modernized the CDU, but this strategy 'CDU will be big city party' is indeed not really worked up. In the big cities, the CDU did not achieve good results even under Mrs. Merkel and because that was also the topic of conversation with the young woman in the beginning, she was against marriage for all. She was not for it. She also voted against it in the Bundestag, so she was more liberal in many ways than she actually was. That's why I think it's the other way around at Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer right now. She looks a bit more conservative than she really is. And that's what I think - this impression reinforces them for tactical reasons, because they want to win this wing of the party, but of course there is a danger, that is not a question that a number of people elected because of Angela Merkel CDU because they said "This is no longer the old CDU I know", that somehow they get the feeling "Hmm, if this is going back in the right direction - CDU from Helmut Kohl", I'll top it off a bit, that's not my party anymore. But I have the feeling that Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer sees it too. And now she has - she does not put her forward at the moment - but she has already said, this issue women for example, women in parliaments, women in politics, that is a very important for them.
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:17:29] It's still very much somehow creating the impression that the issue of women's representation, women's advocacy is the special pleasure of the women's union, but to be honest, it's up to us people's party. Because only if we represent all population groups, we will also have appropriate election results.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:17:52] As she has also represented positions that go well beyond what, for example, the conservative mainstream in the CDU is right. I would imagine that the conservative issues that she addresses may not be as controversial in the future as marriage for all, for example, the topic is also through. Now you really do not need to talk about it anymore.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:18:13] Logically, AKK is often compared to its predecessor Angela Merkel these days. How much distance can or should she take to Merkel? I remember a tone, as she called quite critically the initial phase of the government under Angela Merkel or even the long time it took to find a coalition, as a lead time.
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:18:35] And all of us have seen the last months politically as a leaden time. A leaden time in the election campaign, a leaden time in the formation of a government, and also a leaden time in the way the government passed the first few months.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:18:51] How much distance can be, how much distance should she go to Merkel?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:18:55] That's the $ 100 million question ...
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:18:56] You can answer that now, Ralf, and then we'll share the prize money.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:19:02] Very much. ... that Mrs Kramp-Karrenbauer is currently posing. This is actually the main problem for them, as finding the right mix between distance and proximity. It would now seem silly on the one hand, if she completely distanced herself from Angela Merkel, because everyone knows that the two women understand each other quite well and are similar in many political issues. On the other hand, it is the only thing she has as a party leader what she also emphasizes again and again, to position the party regardless of government requirements in terms of content and that means inevitably to come to other positions than Angela Merkel, who looks only on it, which is good for the government. She just has to be careful that she does not go too far, in too many points, because she can not enforce anything. Of course, she can demand many things when Angela Merkel says "Yes, that's the party position, here in the government we do it differently." Then it quickly becomes clear that Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer has no power whatsoever and to stand by as a lonely caller, who always demands the right thing for the party, but never intersperses anything that will not be used in the long run. Therefore, the great art will be to distance oneself from Merkel on the one hand on central points, as they did in the refugee policy yes, on the other hand, not to go so far away that the impression arises: There is someone who constantly against the Government policy, but can not do anything to enforce its own position.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:20:23] Nowadays it is such that actually something like a Chancellor question in the Union is discussed. For our listeners, who do not follow every day and every political message, you can first of all explain to us again how it can be - on paper, this legislative period will take another two years. So a choice would not be until 2021 - Why are we talking so much about a new chancellor candidate at this time? And if so, would AKK be set?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:20:51] On the one hand, we are already talking a lot about a new chancellor candidate less because of the Union, in fact, but because of the SPD, because the SPD has made it clear since the beginning of this coalition that they really want it there have nothing at all to do and that is really the very last time and only because it has to be and then wrote this revision clause in the coalition agreement, which says that you look at half time, what has ever achieved and the is understood by many in the party as if that was also a breaking point. That is, if you come to the result "has not paid off" you go out just out of the coalition and in that case, of course, would ask the question "how is it then?" And then many in the Union are of opinion, then not with Merkel, but then the time had come for a change at the top of the government. In the Union itself, many would find it good if Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer of Angela Merkel took over before the end of the legislative period. But there is no scenario at all without the SPD, which is reasonably realistic. That is, there is a lot of discussion, but very few of them have a real basis. I still believe that if the SPD remains in the coalition, then Angela Merkel will remain Chancellor by the end of the legislature. Much is now also artificial excitement.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:22:01] Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer himself reacted to this talk in quotes a few days ago. She said:
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer: [00:22:07] At the moment I do not see any relevant voices in the CDU or in the SPD dealing seriously with this topic. That's right, because we have a chancellor and we want and I want to be at the top, that Angela Merkel also remains Chancellor.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:22:20] That is, she's clearing up the discussion a bit, or at least trying to do that. What kind of head of government would Germany get with her as chancellor?
Ralf Neukirch: [00:22:30] That's a very difficult question now. You can only look, what kind of Saarland she was. That gives a bit of clues as to how she would lead such a coalition.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:22:43] Very resolute, I believe.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:22:44] Yes.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:22:44] In preparation I was able to refresh my knowledge. She was, for example, the first female Minister of the Interior, Minister of the Interior, and she ruled-I think one may say so-with a hard hand.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:22:56] Yes, definitely. So in terms of internal security, I think she drives a much more conservative course than Angela Merkel. It has also allowed its coalition partners freedom, but not everything. At the time, she kicked the FDP out of the coalition because she simply said, "it's enough." And then ended the coalition and it has - it must be said - but proven considerable political sense. She ended the coalition at a time when Angela Merkel said, "Do not do it, it'll go wrong, it will go awry." But she said: "No, I think I know the Saarland well enough" and she was right in the end. She then got a very, very good result again in a state election, even though the whole national trend was against her. It was at the height of the hype surrounding Martin Schulz when everyone thought it would be incredibly difficult to become Prime Minister again. She did it with a comfortable result. So I think you would get a head of government, a chancellor, who would be far more conservative than her predecessor, but who has mastered, or at least proved, the business of governance, that she controls it.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:24:08] Thank you Ralf for your assessment today and see you soon.
Ralf Neukirch: [00:24:10] With pleasure.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:24:14] That was "Stimmenfang", the political podcast from SPIEGEL ONLINE.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:24:18] AD: At this point a reminder from our sponsor: Do not forget, your tax return must be completed by 31.07. submit. Or even better, get your tax from the VLH. www.vlh.de.
Yasemin Yüksel: [00:24:33] You will hear the next podcast episode as usual. It will be a special episode. Sandra Sperber speaks in the live recorded podcast with Philipp Amthor, Luise Amtsberg and Kevin Kühnert about being young in politics. You can send us your feedback on this episode and our podcast by sending an e-mail to Stimmfang@spiegel.de or you can call our mailbox on 040 38080400. You can also send us a WhatsApp message to this number. And as always you will find our contact details also in the sownotes to this episode. Sandra Sperber and I, Yasemin Yüksel, have produced this episode. Thanks for the support to Jelena Berner, Sebastian Fischer, Lena Jessen, Johannes Kückens, Thorsten Rejzek and Matthias Streitz. The music comes from Davide Russo.
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