“The machine will not be able to play the role of a judge”: Moskalev about VAR, female referees and a fight in the Zenit-Spartak match

- Refereeing at the World Championships in Qatar has become one of the central topics of discussion.

Many complain that its quality has fallen due to FIFA's attempts to please small countries and "non-football" continents.

Do you agree?

- I would not say that FIFA is doing something like that.

There is simply a difference between judging in Europe and South America, Asia.

I think that's why the final was served by the referee from the Old World.

As for errors, this can be due to a number of factors.

Broadcasts have become much better, as a result of which the audience began to notice even the slightest contacts.

- You said that refereeing is different on different continents.

What do you mean?

- Probably, football in Europe is of better quality.

And the higher the level of football, the higher the refereeing.

And it was perfectly noticeable at the 2022 World Cup.

Most of the controversial points were noted in the matches that were served by teams from non-European countries.

- How closely did you follow the World Cup matches?

- I will not say that I watched a lot of meetings.

Chose top matches.

But, of course, I watched all the controversial episodes with refereeing that caused discussion in the press.

It was interesting to form an opinion, to try to understand the reason for possible errors.

Focused on this.

- How often did you disagree with the chief referees of the World Cup?

- It happened.

At first, you have one opinion about a certain moment, and after watching the video replay, it may well change.

You begin to understand why VAR intervened or not.

Sometimes these questions could not be answered.

We discuss all this at the training camp.

“Perhaps one of them especially stuck in your memory?”

- The episode in the match between the national team of Portugal and Uruguay immediately comes to mind, when a penalty was mistakenly awarded.

The other day we had a three-hour theoretical lesson, during which we analyzed episodes from the 2022 World Cup, including him.

Now we have already managed to understand both the nature of certain decisions of colleagues and the reasons for a number of oversights.

Often the problem is banal: the referee was not positioned correctly, so he could not correctly interpret what happened.

- Most fans and experts were amazed at the amount of stoppage time at the championship.

In your opinion, how justified is this and where did these 10-12 minutes come from, if you try to match the timing?

- Even before the start of the tournament, FIFA announced its intention to deal with manifestations of unsportsmanlike behavior, in particular, simulation of injuries, time delays, long replacements.

Perhaps some took these requirements too seriously.

As far as I know, during the pauses, the assistant of one of the referees deliberately stopped the stopwatch in order to accurately calculate the number of added minutes.

If you approach this issue so scrupulously, then you can really compensate for 10-12.

My opinion is that it's too much.

- Do you think these innovations will take root at the club level?

I think there will be some changes.

But you need to know the measure.

For me, when almost a third of the half is added, this is too much.

- It is clear that at the moment Russian football is in a kind of isolation, but does it receive similar recommendations from FIFA?

- Of course, mailing lists are still coming from the International Football Federation.

But the recommendations concern more significant points of the rules.

I don't think there will be an appeal regarding stoppage time.

It seems to me that it was an experiment that many did not take positively.

We see that after the resumption of the championships, there was no significant increase in stoppage time.

- While watching the World Cup, sometimes I got the impression that the players were treated too loyally.

For outright provocations and simulations, sometimes they didn’t even receive cards, and people weren’t removed for showdown on the field ...

- I think certain recommendations were given to the judges during the training camp on the eve of the World Cup.

The tournament is fleeting, and at such a short distance, the loss of a key player for teams can be fatal.

Nevertheless, this is the most important event of the four years.

Spectators come to watch the performance of the strongest football players on the planet, and not how they receive cards.

- In your opinion, is this possible with us, or can excessive permissiveness lead to emotions overflowing?

- Now in Russia we are trying to set a high standard of struggle so that football is spectacular and dynamic.

But you have to understand that referees and players are different.

It is enough for one to say once to stop breaking the rules, while the other will not calm down until he receives a “yellow card”.

We're talking about match management.

When the emotions of the players go off scale, it is necessary to apply disciplinary sanctions.

- In Qatar, the women's brigade led by Stephanie Frappart worked for the first time for the World Cup meeting.

In your opinion, will the presence of female referees in men's football become the norm or will such stories be one-off?

- I'm leaning towards the second option.

In men's football, everything happens very quickly, the referee must keep up with the ball, always be in an ideal position.

Yes, speed is lost with age, but it is compensated by experience.

The age arbitrator, by reading the game, is able to predict where he should be located at one moment or another, so as not to miss anything.

Therefore, it seems to me that it will not be easy for girls to serve the matches of men's tournaments due to the different possibilities of physiology.

Although I think that a certain number of women referees will be in demand in men's football.

- Did you yourself observe the actions of Frappart in the meeting between Germany and Costa Rica?

No, I didn't watch this match.

I heard everything went well.

Personally, I tried to observe the work of more experienced and status referees, from whom you can note something for yourself.

Frappart has long served both French Ligue 1 and European competitions, and in 2019 she even officiated the European Super Cup match between Chelsea and Liverpool.

Are there women in Russia who can confidently work at the RPL level?

I'm not a big fan of women's football.

Too much time is spent watching the matches of the RPL and European Cups, so there is not enough time to follow the performances of the girls.

However, I do know some.

For example, Christina Sahakyan from Voronezh.

She constantly trains with us, can come up and consult.

In addition, we have Anastasia Pustovoitova, a very great referee with experience in the most high-profile matches.

In my opinion, Nastya would have worked no worse than Frappart.

- One gets the impression that often the presence of a woman on the field has a kind of calming effect on the athletes.

They argue less, express emotions more accurately.

Is it directly related to gender or is it more of a coincidence?

- I'm sure, to some extent, the players restrain themselves when there is a female referee on the field.

This is a moment of upbringing and culture.

For example, men can communicate with each other in the same manner, but in the presence of a girl they will behave more restrained.

The same is true here.

In the course of communication, they begin to choose words, do not be rude, try not to show emotions once again.

- This season, you officiated a super-emotional match between Spartak and Zenit in the Russian Cup, which ended in a huge scandal and a brawl involving both teams.

Would rivals do this in the presence of a woman?

“I can't say for sure.

That incident happened after the final whistle.

In the process of the derby, the degree of tension at times increased, but I managed to maintain control.

You need to understand that the teams have a long history of confrontation, in the match of these rivals, emotions are always at the maximum level, the degree goes off scale.

On the one hand, it is a great honor for a referee to work at such a match, but on the other hand, it is a huge responsibility.

During all 90 minutes, our team managed to control the actions of the players, while maintaining high tension.

I am sure that in terms of struggle and intensity, the game looked and kept the audience both at the screen and in the stadium.

This match has a unique situation.

The most significant incident in the game occurred after the final whistle, when, in theory, all the emotions of the players should subside.

Therefore, what happened was a complete surprise both for the referees and for all the participants in the match.

This is a unique situation, which we analyzed in detail at the training camp, and now we will all be ready for such events on the football field.

Here at the training camp, the representative of the ESC under the President of the RFU, Milorad Mazhic, especially noted this episode for its non-standard nature and pointed out that the match ends for the judge not in the 90th minute, but with the departure of the teams to the locker room.

- Then for a whole week both sides put pressure on you through the media, and experts accused you of losing the threads of the game.

Strongly hurt?

You were appointed only because of Sergei Karasev's illness.

We are all human and understand everything perfectly.

Sometimes you have to urgently replace someone.

Of course, it affects to a certain extent.

Usually you carefully prepare for meetings, but here there was not much time for full preparation.

As for the media, I don't read them after matches.

It is important for me to know what the professionals think.

How did you experience this episode?

- Immediately after the game, you try not to go into deep analysis.

Like football players, we need to cool down and put the nervous system in order, rest.

And only after a few days with a cold head you begin a detailed analysis of the match.

- Karasev said that he does not consider the fight to be your mistake.

Do you share his opinion on this matter?

- Sergey Karasev is a top referee and his opinion is always important to me.

Of course, in some separate moments of this match it was possible to act differently, to understand better.

- During the fight, you climbed to separate Shamar Nicholson from Rodrigao, although blows were flying from both sides.

Were you afraid that you might get hurt?

“Of course, I could have fallen under the hand, but then I didn’t think about it.

When you can nip conflict in the bud, you do it.

I thought if I could calm them down, then the conflict would be over.

Moreover, both already had warnings.

Apparently, after the final whistle, the Jamaican and the Brazilian could not control their emotions.

- After watching the episode, it seemed that you did not doubt for a moment what to do and did not look scared or confused.

Did you really have 100% control over the situation?

- Keeping calm during the match is one of the main professional qualities of a referee.

Then it was necessary to understand what had happened and punish those responsible.

As decided in the ESC, in the case of Promes there was a flaw.

So we need to analyze it and move forward.

- In July, the RFU posted a video recording of your negotiations with Karasev during the Russian Super Cup.

Then this event caused a serious resonance.

Some praised the organization for its openness, others said that such moments should not be made public.

What is your own position?

— I know that the responses are mostly positive.

The fans were able to see how we communicate with the players, a lot of things became much clearer to them.

Personally, I have become a kind of hero of such records several times.

My talks were published during the Super Bowl, the Lokomotiv-Spartak derby.

- Do you have a kind of veto right to publish these materials?

— Of course, everything is spoken out, agreed with me, and then approved by the management.

Why don't you always call players by their first and last names?

And do they resent you for it?

- George Jikia once called Vladimir Viktorovich.

I was pleasantly surprised, I immediately looked at his middle name.

Of course, you need to know everyone by name, it's more correct.

But not always on the pulse of 180 in a dynamic episode, it is possible to quickly recall the name of a football player.

Now at least they write names, before there were only numbers, so senior colleagues had even more difficulty.

Or take the situation with the Miranchuk brothers.

Always confused them.

Now it has become easier, Alexei left, only Anton remained.

- And how do they address you, with the exception of the common "ref"?

- Sometimes by name.

But always respectful.

A certain communication needs to be built, without it, nowhere.

If you do not explain why this or that decision was made, then they will not understand anything.

Although many admit that even after that they do not always realize what exactly made them do it this way and not otherwise.

Speaking of nicknames, not a single player has yet told me that he was offended in some way.

If so, then I take this opportunity to apologize.

- In the course of meetings, you also manage to joke, and it turns out pretty well.

For example, as in the case of Alexander Sobolev, when they spoke with humor about his transfer to a partner.

How natural is this for you and does it help?

- It is very difficult to be extremely concentrated for the whole 90 minutes.

You need to find time to relax a little, and gather at key moments when you need to make the right decision.

Sometimes you can joke.

Moreover, unloading is necessary not only for the chief referee, but also for assistants and video referees.

- Do you notice that the story of the publication of the negotiations had a positive impact on the attitude of the players towards you?

— I think there is a positive trend.

I don't know if this is the reason.

When you work constantly, the players gradually get used to you, your refereeing style.

- At the end of the derby "Lokomotiv" - "Spartak" approached you with an offer to present the game jersey of one of the participants in the confrontation.

Who was that?

“Honestly, I don’t remember.

After the game, a lot of people usually come up and thank you for the game.

I try to do the same myself.

If someone shakes hands, says warm words, then I answer the same.

- Often asked to change shirts?

Arbitrators rarely receive such proposals.

Personally, this has never happened in my career.

- You then said that you would rather take the shirt of Ruslan Litvinov than Promes, and also called the Spartak midfielder a pupil.

- Ruslan is really my pupil and I am extremely pleased that he has grown to the level of the Russian team.

I wish him only the very best: to gain a foothold in the first team of both Spartak and the national team.

We have a warm relationship, I always support him.

But do not forget that on the field all this fades into the background.

After all, he is a football player, and I am a referee.

But someone who, and he is unlikely to ever show unsportsmanlike behavior.

After all, he respects me, and I respect him.

- The way Karasev addressed you (“Volodya, Volodenka”) became a kind of meme.

Do Russian judges really communicate with each other in such stressful situations so respectfully or is this a special case?

It's hard for me to speak for everyone.

As I already said, we have good relations with Gennadyevich.

Perhaps this way it is easier for him to reach me in certain situations.

- In that video, moments were presented in which you and Karasev always found a consensus and made a common decision.

But have you ever had a sharp disagreement with a VAR referee?

“Of course it happens.

These are working episodes.

All people are different and look at football differently, understand martial arts.

Therefore, talk about refereeing has always been, is and will be.

Each person has his own opinion on this or that account.

But there are no mistakes at all.

- In your opinion, who should have the last word - the chief arbiter or the VAR video assistant, because he has more chances to correctly evaluate the episode?

- According to the rules, the final decision is made by the chief arbiter.

- Before the introduction of the VAR system, some of your colleagues believed that this would kill their credibility in the eyes of athletes, because many verdicts would be challenged and changed.

You yourself were not afraid of this?

- When this project was only considered, there were certain concerns.

But I do not think that this has a strong effect on authority.

Especially when it comes to difficult situations in which it was extremely difficult for him to make the right decision.

There are closed episodes, when no matter how you position yourself, it is simply impossible to see all the nuances.

Then VAR comes to the rescue, designed to correct the mistakes of the referee.

- There is an opinion that the use of the VAR system had a negative impact on the arbitrators themselves, relaxed them.

Do you disagree with this?

- No.

Everyone tries to work out so that the intervention of the video assistant is not required.

I'm sure everyone wants to judge flawlessly, get a good grade and a new appointment.

- To sum up, do you think VAR has had a positive impact on football or so far this system has more minuses than pluses?

- In any case, it has already been implemented and will be used even more actively in the future.

I don't think VAR will ever be cancelled.

Unfortunately, there are enough situations when the referee makes a mistake and needs help.

At the same time, this innovation was also appreciated by senior colleagues who ended their careers before the introduction of this system.

In their opinion, it would help them correct many mistakes.

— Gradually, more and more technologies are being introduced.

A goal has been automatically determined for a long time, and an offside recognition system was used at the 2022 World Cup.

Don't you think that soon everything will become like a football simulator: the main and linear referees will leave the field, and all decisions will be made automatically and announced around the stadium in the form of announcements?

Assistants have a very difficult job.

They prepare hard, work very hard, so that later in a split second they can determine whether there was an “offside” position or not.

And the outcome of the meeting may depend on their interpretation.

But this is not the only task of the assistant, he can also suggest that there was a violation of the rules if the episode is better seen from his point of view.

I would not want to be replaced by some program or robot.

Personally, I don't think it will come to that.

When I lecture to young colleagues, I always say that a machine cannot play the role of a judge.

After all, he controls all processes, the course of the meeting itself.

In this case, the players themselves can also be replaced.

But I doubt that fans will be interested in watching such football, because it is much more pleasant and exciting to watch real people.

You get excited when Lionel Messi and Kylian Mbappé play.

• Jean-Philippe Gbamin and Vladimir Moskalev

• RIA News

• © Alexey Filippov

- In September, you turned 36 years old.

On the one hand, there is no reason to be sad because of the suspension, because there are still many years of work ahead.

On the other hand, you not only lost international practice for an indefinite period, but also fell out of the UEFA pool, although in fact you were one step away from the elite category.

Are you very upset about this?

Of course, everyone is worried about this.

The situation is difficult.

We can only hope that it will be resolved soon, and we will again be able to work at the international level.

It is not easy to accept this when you are striving to achieve something in your career.

First, you set yourself the task of getting into the RPL, then - to get the right to work in European competitions.

Now we are actually deprived of it.

But we are not the only ones going through this.

Our football players are also in these conditions and simply have to wait until everything is over, and they can again represent their country in national teams competitions, clubs in European competitions.

- Can you immediately name how many matches you played in the RPL, European competitions and at the national team level?

- I can't tell you the exact number.

If I remember correctly, I played more than a hundred matches in the Premier League, perhaps 116 (117. -

).

I won’t say offhand how many international meetings I have sued, but there were few of them.

Just in the 2021/22 season, I was put on the games of the UEFA Youth League, the Conference League qualifications, appointments gradually appeared.

- In general, does the number in the “matches played” column give you pleasure?

- Certainly.

But there is a goal to increase it.

This is normal.

Naturally, the referees keep track of how many matches have been adjudicated.

For example, the 100th match in a career is an important event.

Previously, the goal was to conquer this bar, now it's time to set new ones - 200, 300 games.

- If you had to name the top three referees in the country, would you include yourself?

— Our work is evaluated by management.

Immediately after the end of the match, this is done by the inspector, then by other authorities.

It's nice when they speak well of you, and at the end of the championship you are in the top.

But still, it's not for me to compose it.

- One often hears phrases from commentators and experts: “the referee returned the favor” or “appointed a penalty on the aggregate”.

Fiction or is this really the case?

— No, it can't be.

If the referee mistakenly assigned a 11-meter kick once, then this is already a key mistake that seriously affects your score.

And if, allegedly trying to fix this, in an unobvious situation, you appoint another penalty, then there are already two such errors.

And then you can no longer hope for a high score.

Therefore, each episode is evaluated separately.

- Everyone remembers the episode with Evgeny Turbin's reaction to being hit by a ball.

Then he did not punish Malcolm, but raised his finger up.

Have there been times in your career when you had to react in the same non-standard way?

— I don't remember.

But I haven't been in a situation like this.

Yes, Malcolm didn't do it on purpose.

But Zhenya is well done, that he regarded everything in this way.

We are also people and we perfectly understand when everything happened by chance, and when something was done with intent.

- An episode from the match between Dynamo and Krasnodar with the cancellation of the red card for Anton Shunin went viral on TikTok and YouTube, including outside of Russia.

Guess what was the most frequent comment under the video?

- I don't follow social media.

Enlighten me.

- "The case when both the referee and the goalkeeper were at the level - one did not freak out, the other found the strength to admit a mistake."

- A lot of players react calmly and get into position, even if the referee made a mistake, the video assistants will watch the replay and figure out what happened.

Then Anton said that the ball hit him in the chest, but he did not play with his hand.

I said, "Don't worry, we'll figure it out."

Unfortunately, I made a mistake, there was a difficult moment.

But VAR fixed this flaw.

Otherwise, I would be very worried.

• Vladimir Moskalev and Anton Shunin

• RIA News

• © Pavel Bednyakov