- Imagine the situation: you are the president of one of the largest Russian sports federations, who was confronted with the fact that athletes cannot participate in international tournaments. Your actions?
- This is too capacious and deep question to answer unambiguously.
Now everything is mixed up: horses, people, silence, uncertainty.
Therefore, it is not so easy to understand how to act more correctly.
Most of all, it is depressing that we have completely lost our international sports policy.
- But this, you see, did not happen yesterday.
- Not yesterday.
Accumulated over the years, and now manifested itself, because the rear was not covered.
Look at the position of international sports federations, where, I note, there are quite a lot of Russian representatives: have you seen at least one interview in which one of them expressed disagreement, or at least an analysis was made and an assessment was made of what is happening?
There is such an organization - the World Olympians Association, which is headed by the former pentathlete Joel Buzu.
The executive committee of this organization did not agree with the recommendations of the IOC regarding the removal of Russian and Belarusian athletes.
Do you think that one of the Russian international officials picked up this topic in the media space?
No.
“That only leads to one thought. That people who hold certain posts in international federations are primarily concerned about being re-elected for another term.
- Correctly.
The well-known ex-head of WADA Richard Pound, who repeatedly criticized Russia from the position of the Agency, criticized the IOC, of which he has been a member since 1978, in the same way.
And why can't our representatives in the IOC afford this?
Because tomorrow they can be removed from there?
But in this situation, they will still be asked from there sooner or later.
So you at least speak out, indicate your position.
Otherwise, it turns out that both athletes and the sports community are in self-deception: we think that we have our own representatives in the leadership of international sports, but in fact, they are representatives of certain organizations on our territory.
- This is partly true, but let's look at the particular example of Elena Vyalbe, who was thrown out of the board of the International Ski Federation in the last elections. Did she have a chance? Or is it just a signal to the sports community that the situation in all other international federations will develop in a similar scenario?
- Absolutely.
And do you know why?
Because each of the federations operates separately.
We were strong when there was a unified concept of views and strong ties in the country.
This is what is called international sports politics.
Now there is no policy left, just like no concept, although this is a huge and very important layer of work.
The same Vyalba was thrown one against all.
What, someone from the Russian sports leadership went to the FIS congress?
Did someone try to raise this topic before the elections in a conversation with IOC President Thomas Bach or use some other leverage?
- Well, the president of the ROC or one of his high-ranking colleagues cannot go to all sports congresses without exception?
- You see, what is the question: in the same Russian biathlon, for example, I do not see a single figure for which one could seriously fight.
While Vyalbe meets absolutely all criteria.
She is an outstanding athlete, a very outstanding leader who went through all the managerial stages from scratch, a contact and very reasonable person, for whom the interests of her own country are no less important than the interests of world skiing.
By the way, we should not forget that until the last elections, Lena was the only woman in the FIS Council.
If the IOC keeps talking about gender policy on all corners, why not ask a question, not demand official, and most importantly, public explanations from Bach?
Why are we afraid to say directly: Mr. Bach, by your actions you exacerbate interaction and interethnic relations in the world!
- As Maria Lasitskene did in part in an open letter ...
- Exactly.
It is necessary to put pressure on the same pedals, use absolutely all the clues, and finally express your position.
But no one does anything: everyone is waiting for the command "from above".
I can tell you with absolute certainty that the IOC reads absolutely everything that is written in Russia about sports - there is a whole specially created department for this.
If we do not use it and are silent, why should we be considered?
It is important to formulate and voice ourselves: what do we want?
When such a concept appears, it is possible that many will want to support it.
But we need to start looking for allies now.
Explain to them how we see a common sporting future, somewhere to compromise.
Are we complaining about not being supported?
So we still don't have any position.
On the whole, there is uniform rudeness on the part of the IOC.
A team of refugees in sports can compete, but Russian athletes are deprived of this right.
Why?
Just because someone does not like the president of our country?
- Do you have an explanation why Bach began to behave in such a defiantly politicized manner?
- I once read his very sensible interview, even before being elected president of the IOC, where Bach placed the accents very correctly.
I will quote only one quote from it: “When I talk with IOC President Jacques Rogge, when I talk with the American Anita de France, with the current Minister of Sports of France, Jean-Francois Lamour, a former fencer, we always return to this topic (the boycott of the 1980 Games .-
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).
Is there a common opinion on those events, or have opinions changed since then?
On the contrary, we are united in our decision.
And we can say with joy that even those who were then ardent supporters of the boycott have recently admitted their mistake.”
What happened after?
First, many people forget that the IOC is an organization that includes a much larger number of countries than the UN.
And, having become the head of such an organization, especially after being re-elected for a second term, anyone will feel dizzy.
Secondly, most leaders of this rank invariably have a question: “Who will I be then?”.
In order to ensure this “later” for yourself, you need to be friends with someone.
Bach is not friends with Russia now.
I think that his most important friend at the moment is the Americans, perhaps the British.
Moreover, a campaign has already begun to nominate a new president of the IOC.
- How is it shown?
- Candidates have appeared, one of which is the notorious Sebastian Coe.
Enough of the British and those who support them have appeared in the block of leadership of international sports associations, they actively influence many processes.
When Coe announced that World Athletics would not cancel or in any way reduce competitions held in China, it became clear that he began to play with Asia, to secure support in future elections.
As for Bach, I believe he was told: if you do not want to ruin your future career and life in this political situation, you must obey.
And then everything will be fine.
For big politics, Bach, as an independent figure, is too small.
I do not leave the feeling that he got confused and swam.
This happens when there is no own position, but there is strong external pressure.
And in proportion to this pressure, a person begins to get out in one direction or the other.
- Bach, by the way, said that the IOC has no claims against the National Olympic Committee of Russia.
- And how then can athletes be punished?
You already decide whether you are for the Reds, or for the Whites, so to speak.
If the problem is really so big, why hasn't the Russian Olympic Committee been expelled from the IOC?
Has it been suspended?
- There's an answer?
“If they exclude our country, then there will be nothing to discuss.
For now, we're on their hook.
Here they pull the thread.
Therefore, I advocate that we have our own concept of looking at the modern Olympic movement.
Yes, we are now saving our athletes and are ready for a lot for them.
But returning to the game on the same terms, if the rules are not changed in it, does not seem to me a sensible solution.
Why were we powerless to somehow influence the current situation?
- Too relaxed.
Historically, the contribution to world sport of both the Soviet Union and all the republics is so great that we relied on this authority.
And it turned out to be false.
- Has the Russian sports leadership already expressed its intention to compensate for the lack of international starts with domestic ones? From your point of view, is this the way out?
- Rather, it is a very long-term project, if you think about not just holding this or that tournament, putting a tick, but taking it to a certain level, stake out a place for it in the international calendar.
Plus, one cannot ignore the position of other countries.
We can talk as much as we like about our intentions to participate in Asian tournaments, but we must understand that the Olympic web has covered all international sports so that no one will flinch.
Any country that allowed Russian athletes to participate in its tournaments, or sent its athletes to Russia, the IOC will simply deprive the right to host competitions.
Moreover, it will punish indicatively.
Now there is a different question: what to do with our large sports market of accumulated potential, with specific people who have reached a certain level of their physical and sports development.
We will not save them by any internal competitions, this is a utopia.
- Nevertheless, a number of federations have already announced the level of prize money, which is planned to be made comparable to payments for victories at the largest international competitions.
“This is where we got lost.
Because this is work for handouts, and not for the promising participation of the country in world sports.
Such a false and very momentary airbag.
- It turns out that all we can do now in relation to top-level Russian athletes is to recommend that they end their careers?
- In my opinion, it will be just a crime against people and against domestic sports in general.
If we now lose all our leaders, the connection between generations will be broken, and this is the worst thing.
The level of coaching skills will drop, because the coaches also found themselves in isolation.
Each of these people is an absolutely piece product.
And our duty is to properly employ them.
- Do I understand correctly that now you are talking about changing sports citizenship?
- Yes.
It's just that I would not speak about citizenship, but about the fact that the need to abandon flag participation is long overdue.
After all, sport is as much a profession as ballet or opera.
Do our soloists perform at La Scala?
Yes, we do not have a law on professional sports, there is no social structure after that, there is no full-fledged insurance coverage, but right now we must answer ourselves: what kind of professional sports do we need in Russia in the future?
If the state no longer makes an order for the performance of its athletes at the world championships and the Olympics, this is one issue that does not depend on me or you and must be resolved at the highest level.
If we want to remain on the world stage, we must enter it from a different turn, without losing the pace of development.
And we can do this only when we manage to save all those people about whom I spoke.
Transfer them to normal sports contracts, protected by another country, other clubs, give them the opportunity to perform at a decent level.
We do not stop selling oil, sorry for such a comparison.
We are looking for ways to sell it.
- After all, you have repeatedly said before that the time has come to abandon the "flag" participation.
And now I can do it again.
See how much professional sports are changing the tactics of their participation in the Olympic movement.
Countries like Germany, France, Italy don't get hung up on such a thing as a team standings at all.
There is a completely different position, which is that the main thing is a physically healthy nation.
And the Olympics are a professional sport, a competition of personalities.
We, I think, should also take this path.
And to raise the question: remove the flags, remove the anthems, remove any political component from sports.
- Do you think it's real?
- I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Not so long ago, the largest Japanese publication, the Mainichi Shimbun, published an article in which the author, a professor, writes that, in his opinion, the neutrality of the athletes and the absence of state symbols will make the Games a pure and non-politicized competition.
Instead of subdividing by country, it has been suggested that athletes be grouped by the sport they represent.
- Two years ago, when the fate of the Tokyo Games was in question, you voiced a proposal to play Olympic awards in the framework of world championships in various sports and in different countries, motivating your proposal by the fact that the Games are held by international federations, and not by the Olympic Committee.
“You just need to understand that the world has changed and some things in this world need to be changed.
What is the main problem of the current Olympic movement when we say that it has reached a dead end?
It is that business and politics are so merged into a single whole, and this is such a mutually beneficial alliance that it becomes extremely difficult to break this connection: business will leave, the Olympic movement will simply fall apart.
This means that we need to work together to find some other model, to interest the business in something else.
There is another point: if the IOC allows a political aspect in relation to sports, the question immediately arises: what kind of policy does it support?
The same Bach first made a statement, urging every sports federation not to allow Russian and Belarusian athletes to participate in tournaments, and then, when he realized that he got excited, he said that this was just a recommendation from the IOC.
But all the international federations have already lined up and saluted.
Just after that, the American Olympic Committee signed signatures from 37 countries in favor of banning athletes from Russia and Belarus from competing abroad.
And I immediately want to ask those who signed this: are you leaving the IOC, setting your own rules?
- And now what i can do? You can't contact this or that country and say: we have dozens of Olympic champions sitting here without work, take them to your clubs.
- Yes, our representatives in the international federations are worthless if we cannot use this leverage.
I have worked in the International Cycling Federation for too many years in a leadership position to understand this.
Can you describe the mechanism?
- It is elementary and consists only in the ability to negotiate.
For example, in the same cycling sport, there is a loophole that allows athletes to compete at the world championships under the club flag.
It's time to start improving this formula, to connect some third-party experience.
We have accumulated quite solid experience in the presence of big business in sports in our country.
Has any of the oligarchs ever been invited to the board of the sports ministry to share this experience?
No.
Although the same Alisher Usmanov is an absolutely outstanding and very far-sighted leader.
We must understand that if business does not express its interest now, we will be knocking on closed doors endlessly.
- In your opinion, how quickly and in what form is it possible for Russia to return to the international arena?
- We again return to the question: is it necessary to strive to return at any cost?
Personally, I don't think it's necessary to make such a statement without thinking it through.
Especially after such an insult and humiliation was inflicted on the country.
It is clear that this colossus cannot be moved without state regulation.
But the state should not replace those who manage sports in the country.
And it is absolutely unacceptable when the inept management of sports damages the state image.
This is another argument in favor of the club system of sports, which excludes direct dependence.
There was a misfortune, the athlete violated certain rules, his club was punished.
And the state in any situation is above the fight.
- Is the loss of Russia, as one of the most influential players, significant for world sports?
- More than.
Here it makes sense to recall where the decision to open Olympic sports for professionals came from.
The biggest fighter for maintaining amateur status was at one time the American Avery Brundage, who led the IOC from 1952 to 1972.
It was Brundage who introduced the so-called 26th rule of the IOC.
Instigated a form of terror.
But then, when Juan Antonio Samaranch was already at the head of the IOC, and the Games themselves began to turn into a show, the question arose that representatives of the USSR and the socialist camp could not win in all sports, an alternative was needed.
If the main financial flows come from the United States, then the American must win.
How to achieve this?
Only by allowing American professionals into the sport.
Today, everyone still needs a grandiose performance.
And without Russia, it seems to me, it is simply impossible.