José María Maravall: "I wish there was a rapprochement between PSOE and PP"

José María Maravall (Madrid, 1942).

Emeritus Professor of Political Sociology at the

and twice Minister of Education with

.

His latest book is entitled

(Gutenberg Galaxy).

"Socialism is what socialists do," declared British Prime Minister Harold Wilson or French Prime Minister Lionel Jospin. "Socialism is what socialists always betray," proclaimed Bernard Shaw. Which of the two definitions, both cited in your book, best fits the Pedro Sánchez government? I quote them with irony, I do not agree with either of the two, I ask you because many accuse Pedro Sánchez of having betrayed some principles that he himself had set ... Look, in 2018 I began by signing a manifesto prepared by Miguel Satrústegui asking for the abstention of the PSOE in the investiture of Rajoy. And I remember that I told Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, with whom I talked a lot, that I believed that the Socialist Party could practice a policy from Parliament,But Alfredo told me that it was going to be impossible, that the party was very mobilized by Sánchez ... That is, my start with Sánchez was not exactly one of enthusiasm. But ... But then, seeing what he has been doing, I remembered a phrase from Miguel Boyer many, many years ago, answering a question from the PP about why he had deviated from a programmatic proposal of the socialist government. And Boyer answered with a phrase from Keynes. "When I make a mistake, I rectify, which is what to do." I was wrong about Pedro Sánchez then. And although I have no relationship with Pedro Sánchez, none, the truth is that there are measures of his that seem excellent to me. How, for example, the Celaá law. Although it has generated a lot of controversy because educational laws always generate it,I think it is an excellent law that does not discriminate against students or guide them through rigid educational paths from very early on, which is what happened until then. I also believe that the approval of a minimum vital income is essential to fight poverty, which is much higher in Spain than in other European countries. I also agree with the treatment of the Valley of the Fallen, I believe that we are the only country that kept very alive vestiges of a dictatorship that was very bloody, in Germany there is no remnant of Nazism. And I believe that the policy of pardons to the Catalan independentists, although I am skeptical about its results, is the only answer that can lead to a solution to a problem that has dragged on since 1714.Do you think that pardons will solve the problem? My skepticism regarding the solution to the Catalan problem is very great, but I think that what Espartero said that Barcelona had to be bombed every 40 years is outrageous. The only way to try to find ways of understanding little by little is precisely through the path that Pedro Sánchez is following. I believe that the path of dialogue, starting with pardons, is a possible approach. What if that route failed? If it failed and the pardoned returned to their old ways, the courts would put them back in jail. What is being offered you is an opportunity, and that opportunity may or may not be destroyed. But at least they are offered a chance to get this back on track. I remember that Rubalcaba defended a federal model for Spain that makes a lot of sense. Bavaria,in Germany, it is quite different from the other Landers; in Great Britain it is normal for there to be a Scottish football team, a Welsh football team and an England football team, competing against each other ... That form of pragmatism seems to me to be quite exemplary. I would like that in Spain there were a plurality of peoples, and that a certain harmony could be created between all of them. What perhaps perverts everything in the Catalan issue is that the Government needs the pro-independence parties to be able to govern ... I would be very sympathetic to the fact that agreements could be reached between the PSOE and the PP. For the substantive issues, for the so-called State issues, the agreement between the PP and the PSOE is fundamental, and hopefully that rapprochement would take place. You are a socialist but being objective, why are these agreements not produced,Who is guilty? I do not know. I have not been involved in politics for many years ... But he follows her, observes her and is a fine analyst of her ... Yes, but I don't know who is to blame, really. What seems to me is that Pablo Casado has quite a few problems: on the one hand he has Vox, on the other hand he has Citizens ... And I believe that internally there is competition for the leadership of the PP: I do not believe that Isabel Ayuso limits her objectives to be the president of the Community of Madrid. He has listed for me what in his opinion would be the most important achievements of the Sánchez coalition government. What would be the worst mistakes of this Executive? I do not know at all the ins and outs of politics, but what I regret the most is that it is so difficult to reach agreements with the PP. You have taught both Pablo Iglesias and Íñigo Errejón.What were one and the other like? Intellectually Pablo Iglesias was extremely capable, but politically Errejón seems to me to have much more capacity. In politics I have esteemed Errejón more than Pablo Iglesias. As a theorist of democracy, what do you think of the disaster in Afghanistan? Why has it not been possible to export democracy to that country? I suppose that democracy can be exported, what I don't know is how the management regarding Afghanistan has been so disastrous. In any case, the performance of Spain has been quite acceptable, Spain has sent planes to evacuate refugees in large numbers. Faced with the opinion of many against immigrants, Spain needs immigrants. We had an emigration of three million Spaniards who left abroad, and at the moment we have a very scarce young population,the birth rate is very low in Spain, we have many more old people like myself than young people. Immigrants are going to be the ones who pay for our pensions. Angela Merkel, one of the main guarantors of the European Union and Western democracy, is leaving now ... What do you think her departure will entail? The truth is that the management of Angela Merkel causes me enormous admiration. It is a great loss because she is a leader full of humanity, full of common sense, extremely balanced and very informed. Why in Spain is it impossible to imagine a coalition between the PP and the PSOE? Perhaps we lack the concept of state that they do have in other countries? What we lack is the experience of coalitions. In Europe the rule is coalitions.A coalition government is a government that lasts longer and also redistributes income much more. In Spain we have been used to majority governments, of the right or of the left, and Sánchez's experience is the first of a coalition, and that makes many hinges of the political system squeak. But it should be the rule. In Belgium there is a coalition government; in Sweden, a coalition; in Italy, coalition. Even in England there have been coalition governments between Labor and Liberals. Forms of understanding are very important in democracies, and coalitions facilitate them. What do you think of the controversy over the price of electricity? I have no idea ... But as a citizen and consumer you suffer, like everyone else, the high price that electricity has reached under a left-wing government ...All I know is from the press. I believe that the proposals to reduce VAT that are being made or to complement it with increases in the minimum wage can offset the rise in the price of electricity. But those who should be asked are those in charge of electricity companies. According to the new Primary Education curriculum, children are going to stop studying Roman numerals. What do you think? If so, I would be very sorry. I lived in France for many years, six years, and Latin was one of my specialties.the children are going to stop studying Roman numerals. What do you think? If so, I would be very sorry. I lived in France for many years, six years, and Latin was one of my specialties.the children are going to stop studying Roman numerals. What do you think? If so, I would be very sorry. I lived in France for many years, six years, and Latin was one of my specialties.

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Know more

• PP

• PSOE

• Pedro Sanchez

• Pablo Iglesias

• European Union

• Vox

• Citizens

• Madrid's community

• Mariano Rajoy

• Miguel Boyer

• Valley of the Fallen

• Catalonia

• Final Interview

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The Panel Pedro Sánchez does not stop attrition and the PSOE falls below 100 seats

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