Dr.

Muhammad Emara - who departed from our world on the evening of Rajab 4, 1441 AH, corresponding to February 28, 2020 - is a milestone of an important historical stage, regardless of our differences in our stances towards him and his intellectual production.

Left and right turned in the realms of ideas, it all started early before all, and it was a pioneer for all.

Experiment, think, contemplate, books, present and struggle.

In its first stage he was a leftist;

It was a scene influenced by a broad young generation who later became great thinkers in various currents.

Amara handled his ideas meticulously sometimes, and at other times he exaggerated;

Approached from the left, approached the Mu'tazila, approached the Brotherhood, approached the Salafists, and worked with Al-Azhar headed by Sheikh Dr.

Ahmed El tayeb;

But he remained independent, self-made and could not be counted on anyone but himself.

He had the merit of a head start, the virtue of respectable moral stances, he did not compliment and did not change what he truly believed.

He was steadfast on his principles, especially since he had ascended in positions, travels, and jobs that he recovered very early after his graduation and then divorced them until his death.

The following is an interview that was conducted with him in 1431 AH / 2010AD within the framework of preparing a documentary film - for the benefit of Al-Jazeera Channel - about his personal biography and intellectual career. The dialogue has not been published in full, and some amendments have been made to it, which requires converting the text of speech from oral to written, without any prejudice. This is in its text, its meaning, and not even its wording, with few exceptions imposed by editing and casting speeches.

1- The

stage of formation and intellectual formation:


• You

grew up in an illiterate rural family;

Could you describe the atmosphere in which you grew up and the difficulties you faced?

- I

was born on Rajab 27, 1358 AH, corresponding to December 8, 1931 CE, in a village called “Sarwa,” the center of “Qaleen,” in the governorate of Kafr al-Sheikh, in the north of the Delta.

I was born into a well-to-do rural family, neither rich nor poor, who lives off their land, and I joke that I say that I am one of the "gentlemen";

My father is one of the gentlemen of the Pharaohs, and my mother is one of the gentlemen of the family of al-Bayt, because the family embodies the embrace of Egypt with Arabism and Islam, I am the fourth of my male brothers, and my father before I was born a vow to God Almighty if this pregnancy came a child to name him Muhammad and give him to knowledge, and knowledge in the term village at that date is Religious science.

I had an experience in “Al-Kuttab” in which there was severe cruelty and violence, and people thought that the “corporal” or the sheikh who hit hard was the one who taught a good education.

This behavior alienated me from teaching, so I tried to work in agriculture like my brothers, but my father was keen to fulfill his vow and was cruel to me more than the cruelty of the book.

I moved to another book where a sheikh named Muhammad al-Jundi, may God have mercy on him, taught us about it.

He was an Azharite who did not complete his education, he was confused with circumstance and kindness, and when I went to him, God conquered me, and things began to go in the right way.

I memorized the Qur’an and its quality, and in the same period I used to go to compulsory education, so we learn the rules of arithmetic and all these modern civil matters.

In 1945 A.D. I went to the religious institute in the city of Desouk, and there were five institutes in Egypt at that time: the Alexandria Institute, the Desouk Institute, the Tanta Institute, the Cairo Institute, and the Assiut Institute, and now there are more than 8 thousand institutes.

The elementary school on that date was like the middle school now, we used to enter the first primary after memorizing the Qur’an, its intonation, arithmetic and dictation.

And the elementary school in Al-Azhar at that date taught high sciences, so in the fourth grade of primary school we were studying 'The Seed of Gold' (= a reference book in grammar by Ibn Hisham al-Ansari, who died in 761 AH / 1360 CE), who taught in four years at the College of Arts, what we study in the elementary in one year He was studying in four years at King Fouad University!

The experience of primary education opened many doors for me, especially since the atmosphere in Al-Azhar was characterized by stagnation, and we used to study footnotes and comments, and then I noticed that what is taught in Al-Azhar is not books of the era of civilizational prosperity nor books of the era of renewal, but books mostly written in the era of the Mamelukes. We were striking, sit-ins, and protests calling for the reform of Al-Azhar and the introduction of foreign languages.

How I headed to the

first reading of it?

And who are you affected by?

-

I was fortunate with a number of professors who gave me a great benefit, such as Sheikh Abd al-Rahman Jalal, who was a righteous man and a scholar of jurisprudence, who encouraged me to read, and Sheikh Muhammad Kamel al-Fiqi, may God have mercy on him, who was the spark that ignited thinking, reading and writing, was a political and ransom, which the Saadia government denied in That time to Desouk, he was distinguished as an Sheikh, elegant, reading newspapers and magazines, and this was strange to the sheikhs on that date.

We were in the second year of elementary school and he was teaching us grammar, and reading the opening article for us in the Al-Masry newspaper, he entered one day and asked: Who among you can buy a book other than the prescribed books?

So I went and bought the book “The Looks” by Al-Faflouti (d. 1924 A.D.), and this was the first book in my life that I bought from outside the prescribed books. Poem poetry in praise.

In our village there was a scholar named Sheikh Abd al-Tawab al-Shennawi who was a reader and preacher and enjoyed a kind of leadership in the village, and he graduated from the College of Fundamentals of Religion, and God willing that he died in the year in which he graduated, and he had a rich library containing four thousand books, and it included the magazine 'Al-Azhar' and magazine The Message, which contained the original copy of the magazine “The Most Trustworthy Arwa,” The Eyes of Islamic Thought, and a number of books translated from European languages.

His family was illiterate, which made the library neglected, so when he turned to reading, I started buying this library, so I bought the library for forty pounds (each book for a penny), and I bought it in batches, because the amount was buying a large land at the time.

I used to read this library, especially during the vacation period (four months). I used to read until the lines were lost before my sight, so I would rest and then read again.

I read in this library the book 'Nahj al-Balaghah' explained by Imam Muhammad Abdo (d.1905 CE), and the theory of [evolution] by Charles Darwin (d.1882 CE), and I read about socialism.

2-

Attachment to the national cause and political work:


• You

practiced political activity at the university, and joined the "girl's Egypt";

Why is Egypt the girl and not the Muslim Brotherhood?

- It

happened that I met people from the "Young Egypt" party, and I started working on politics through the national movement in Egypt, and through the Palestinian cause.

The first demonstration I participated in was in 1946 during the Institute's period (1945-1946), and they were demonstrations against the Sidqi / Bevin Project about the English evacuation from Egypt.

In 1947 I began to preach in mosques against the Jews (= the Israelis), and for the sake of the Palestinian cause, and I wrote the first article entitled "Jihad" about the fedayeen who entered Palestine before the Arab armies. It was published on April 1, 1948 in the newspaper "Misr Al-Fatat", and I believe The publication of this article determined my future and my destiny in my relationship with writing.

I had anxiety at this point; Do I belong to the Muslim Brotherhood or Egypt the girl? “Misr al-Fatat” was a national, progressive, Islamic party, and the Brotherhood was an Islamic group, and I saw in a dream Ahmed Hussein (d. 1982 CE) and Hassan al-Banna (d. 1949 CE), but the one who favored me “Young Egypt” over the “Muslim Brotherhood” is that our colleagues are from The students who belonged to the Brotherhood had a specific program in reading that they did not transgress, and it was determined for them by the group, and I had an hunger for reading, because this restriction on the freedom to read and read is what favored the girl’s Egypt.

In addition to that, my father, may God have mercy on him, was sick, and he was afraid that if he died, he would not complete my education, so he wrote me a condition of two hundred pounds, and this was a large sum, and he asked me to register this condition in the court of Desouk, and the court employee was presenting publications to the girl’s Egypt, and I was also reading the Misr newspaper. The girl, and I know the news of the fedayeen who entered Palestine from Egypt and Syria, before the entry of the Arab armies to Palestine in May 1948.

After that, I turned to the Socialist Party, which gave me an opportunity that many of my generation of students of Al-Azhar education had not had.

The student Al-Azhari used to read in heritage, and the student in civil education was reading in Western thought, but I had the opportunity to read about heritage and Western thought together.

At this stage, you had a clear revolutionary tendency, so that you tried more than once to train in weapons and engage with the fedayeen at a very early stage in your life;

how did that happen?

-

When the events of the Palestinian cause escalated;

I volunteered to train in weapons and go to Palestine, but because of my age and that Desouk was a small city, I did not have the opportunity to enter Palestine, and when the 1936 treaty between Egypt and England was canceled in 1951, I trained on weapons as well.

Then I also trained in weapons to go to the Suez Canal and fight the English army in the military bases there, but the Cairo fire happened, and I postponed the matter.

But I was able to go to the canal to confront the tripartite aggression 1956, when I had a relationship with the Egyptian left, which was between him and the government cooperated to confront the tripartite aggression.

In the primary and secondary stage - before joining the left - I had experience in spiritual struggle and non-tariqa mysticism, and I used to preach on the pulpit against the Sufi orders and teach people the duties of religion and resist injustice, and on the Friday that preceded the July Revolution I happened to criticize King Farouk, and when he was dismissed after the revolution he thought Some people thought that I was aware of the details of the July Revolution, and others thought that I was one of the righteous saints of God.

And when the parties - including Young Egypt and the Socialist Party - were abolished, we had no choice but to confront feudalism, for the left at that time was the knight of the social cause and social justice, and it had a position on the national cause.

It was against military bases and foreign presence.

I had entered the left from the door of the social issue from the door of the revolutionary issue.

There are two issues that have stuck with me in my life - from the beginning until this date - and they are: the issue of freedom and the liberation of the homeland, and the issue of social justice, which was calling people to stand with the poor, and this is what made me belong to the left.

The left also allowed me to read Marxism and Western thought, and this added to me and was not deducted from me. There were many things in Marxism that I realized had analogues in Islamic thought, such as the idea of ​​controversy and the relationship between social phenomena.

Why were you admitted to prison, and how did this experience affect you while you were a student?

-

it was the

consequences of the

link that

I left ,

separated from the

university for one year; Because I led a national and national conference, and I was arrested for about six years, which led to my graduation being delayed until 1965 (instead of 1958). During the period of imprisonment and detention - despite the torture therein - I worked on reading and writing. Pen and paper were forbidden, but we used to escape them through the jailers, and in the al-Mahariq prison in the oases I headed a team to work on a farm. Because I am a farmer with experience in agriculture, and this allowed me to communicate with the people of the oases.

During that period I wrote four books;

Before prison I wrote a book on Arab nationalism and America's plots against Arabs, when I was a student at Dar Al Uloom, I wrote it in the face of a leftist ideology that denies the existence of an Arab nation, and I, with my Islamic heritage, realized that the Arab nation was formed with the emergence of Islam, so I spent a week and wrote this book, and it was the first book in Egypt publishes on Arab nationalism after the union between Egypt and Syria, two editions were printed and translated into Russian.

I wrote it in 1957 and printed in 1958.

When I entered prison and things stabilized, I embarked on reading to develop this study, so I wrote books: 'The Dawn of National Awakening', 'Arabism in the Modern Age', 'The Arab Nation and the Issue of Unity', and 'Israel Is It Sublime?';

It is a study comparing the Zionist project and the Crusader project.

And these books were published after I got out of prison.

3-

Intellectual and ideological shifts:


You had a leftist orientation and a nationalism, how did you combine them? Then you fluctuated a lot - apparently - and you moved between the left, socialist thought, Mu'tazila and Islamic reformism, and you were accused of various charges, including materialism, retirement, then rationalism, then you are among the "new heritage", then Salafism! How do you view these shifts and classifications?

- I

entered the left for the sake of the social issue, but by reading and contemplating in prison, I realized that the solution to the social problem lies in Islam, in the theory of succession and not in the class struggle and Marxism, and this is what made me - after getting out of prison in 1954 and obtaining a BA in 1965 - devoted myself to the intellectual project since the middle of Sixties. There was a sharp polarization in intellectual life between Westernization and what is called Salafism, so Islamic moderation and Islamic renewal - that is, the connection to origins and roots with renewal - were what occupied me.

My positions in the left phase, the nationalist phase, and then the Islamic phase occurred in which there was maturity and development, but there were no sharp breaks between them.

I was a leftist in the revolutionary social sense, not in the dogmatic sense, so there was no atheism.

Because spiritual experience and authentic religious formation kept me from being absorbed into materialistic thought and material theory.

When I realized that the solution to the social problem in Islam - and not in Marxism - this was the beginning of maturity in the Islamic position.

In the Nasser stage, there was a focus on the national and Arab dimension, and I was and still am aware that nationalism is a circle of the Islamic League circles, so there was no contradiction between the victory for Arab unity and Arab nationalism and the Islamic circle.

In the left phase, I do not deny that I had a kind of intellectual fraud, and one of the disadvantages of the left phase - for me - is that I used to memorize many poetry collections, and then I forgot this in the left phase because I was occupied with publications and political activity, but the intellectual fraud began to disappear in the Islamic phase little by little After 1967, the national project retreated and the focus became the Islamic circle.

Also, from the depth of my Islamic position, the emergence of the Islamic awakening in the eighties, and the escalation of Western challenges to the Islamic awakening and the Islamic solution after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, which made me devote many books to confront Western thought and respond to the ultra-secularists, but the national and Arab circle remained, the issue of social justice and the revolution. Social injustice is noticeable in my writings, and the human circle and interaction with different civilizations has also been present in my intellectual project.

As for the subject of Mu'tazila;

I wrote my Masters and PhD theses as a form of hobby, because from the beginning I resolved and prayed to God not to be an employee and to devote all my time to intellectual work.

I wrote my masters in 1970 about the Mu'tazila and the problem of human freedom, and what motivated me to this - an idea that I still keep - is that I embrace all the nation’s heritage, all the nation’s divisions, and do not entrench itself in a particular sect or sect.

I found that those who wrote about the Mu'tazila before me used to write about the Mu'tazila from the books of their opponents;

Because the Mu'tazilite manuscripts had not been discovered, even Karl Brockelmann (d.1956 CE) when he wrote 'History of Arabic Literature' did not write about the Mu'tazila manuscripts, and the Zaydi imams had collected the Mu'tazila heritage and imprisoned it and no one knew about it, and when I went in 1951 - on a mission from the University The Arab countries and the Egyptian House of Books - To Yemen, I learned about the newly discovered Mu'tazilite heritage, and the Zaydis had a relationship with the Mu'tazilites, so they preserved their texts and manuscripts.

Taha Hussein (d.1973 CE) had previously been interested in the manuscripts of Judge Abdul-Jabbar (d.415 AH / AD), so he published al-Mughni and many of these books, and I was the first to complete higher studies in Mu'tazili thought, and my work was fairness to the Mu'tazila and not biased towards them as a group without All the difference, I wrote a doctoral thesis on the theory of the Imamate between the Mu'tazila, the Shiites, and the different sects of the Sunnis.

Moreover, the accusation of retirement still exists until now, but I say: I did not entrench itself in a sect. The Mu'tazila did justice as knights of Islamic rationality, and they were the knights of spreading Islam in the cities that were opened and there were schools of philosophy, so it was necessary for a rational thought to confront these schools.

At the time I was studying the Mu'tazila, I used to publish the works of Rifa’a Al-Tahtawi (d. 1873 CE), Muhammad Abdo, Jamal al-Din al-Afghani (d. 1897 CE), Abd al-Rahman al-Kawakibi (d.1902 CE), Qasim Amin (d.1908 CE) and Ali Mubarak (d.1893 CE).

I invite those who consider retirement an accusation to distinguish between the Mu'tazila of Basra and the Mu'tazila of Baghdad, and the developments that took place after that.

And when I call for embracing the entire heritage of the nation and choosing from it, I am against emigration to a division, entrenching itself in its trenches, or rejecting a division.

The Salafi thought has things of greatness, and when I approached Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH / 1328 CE) I wrote about him and his rationality, and now we are called “the New Modernists,” and before we were called “the New Heritage,” a name given to me, Tariq al-Bishri and Adel Hussein (D 2001 AD).

 4-

Writing and the intellectual project:


Why did you decide from the beginning to be a writer?

What distracted you from nothing but writing from what other jobs and positions occupied with?

-

I started publishing in an early period since I was in elementary school, and this gave me a sense that this is my natural place, so the most beautiful place to put my name is a newspaper or a book.

I used to consider the job a kind of slavery, and after we got out of prison, my left-wing colleagues found a job in the press and other things based on a deal with the government. As for me, I left the left, so I did not appoint in this field, but appointed me in the Consumer Association.

When I asked the reason for this, I was told: There are many thieves, and we want you to prevent theft in the association!

I told them: But there is a possibility that I will turn into a thief like them!

I realized that this job was an attempt at moral killing, my salary was twenty pounds, and I used to take leave without pay to spend most of my time (18 hours) in the Egyptian National Library (in the postgraduate stage), and sometimes I was paid seven pounds a month after deducting a period Holiday.

My father used to send me unleavened bread, bread, sugar and tea on the train from the country.

I realized that this moral killing must be resisted, especially since I tried to work as a corrector in the printing press, but they refused, and after two or three years I asked to be transferred to the Ministry of Culture in Heritage in the General Book Authority, and I began to work in the investigation of heritage, and I had the opportunity to review sensitive Islamic books Very poorly paid.

I was offered a lot to go to Arab universities in the oil-rich countries, but I refused;

Because myself did not allow me to work for a sponsor, and because my main goal was to devote myself to intellectual work, and what helped me in this was that my wife was understanding of my intellectual ambitions, so that she left her higher education in agriculture and devoted himself to the house and carried its burdens, and my house is a library, which I reconstituted after it Looted after arrest.

I used to go to the book fair every day to buy books with the money I collected, and my library grew until it covered all the walls of the house, and my wife asked me: What do we do with the books?

I tell her foreplay: We'll hang it on the ceiling.

My children were born in a library, and I had a curriculum in teaching children to train from an early age on pictures and paper, and to establish an affinity between them and the paper.

What does writing mean to you?

If you don't write, what do you feel?

-

Writing for me -kalqrah and intellectual work is Aam- message, but is the

mother of

worship.

My office is my mihrab, and I see that sincerity in what I believe is a matter of principle, so a person strives and may be wrong, but what is important is sincerity in seeking the truth.

We are fighting a fierce battle and a declared war on Islam, and that is why I live in the face of challenges, and I have book projects that I neglected for many years because of these challenges.

 •

those who have

been affected?

Have you been influenced by a specific person in writing and investigation techniques, especially as you entered postgraduate studies as a hobby and did not pursue an academic career?

-

There are many scholars that have been influenced by them in the moral aspect and the intellectual attachment to the mouths of Islam, more than I have been influenced by their writings.

The modern school that I was deeply affected by and belonged to is the school of revival and renewal, especially al-Afghani and Abduh, as their heritage was the starting point for the revival and renewal process in the modern era.

There was a strong spiritual relationship between me and Sheikh Muhammad Al-Ghazali (d.1996 AD), before I read the Sheikh's books when I wanted to defend him against the Salafist attack on him.

I greatly admired Abbas Al-Akkad (d. 1964 A.D.) in his Islamism and not in politics, and when I was on the left I used to write letters of criticism and severe attack, and he was responding to me in the newspaper 'Akhbar Al-Youm', I was writing under a pseudonym and he gave me violent responses.

Because he was supporting the king and the British, so his political side made him less than it was.

I used to admire Akkad, his self-taught, uncleanliness and pride. I used to see him in Tahrir Square, so I greatly admired him.

I also liked Taha Hussein, although the literary side has more than the intellectual side, but his career and his struggle have formed sources of intellectual admiration for these flags.

Nevertheless, I was not entangled in the legacy of Alam from among these, but the group that set about publishing its heritage and ideas (Al-Tahtawi, Al-Afghani, Ali Mubarak, Muhammad Abdo, and Qasim Amin), and I learned the verification of books from the investigation of Aisha Abdul Rahman (the deceased girl in 1998 CE) to the letters of Abi Ala Al-Maari (d. Hegira 449 / AD 1058).

• Are

you affected by

writing your psychological, social or external influences?

Do you have a special atmosphere and rituals in writing?

-

make writing for me against a

wall surrounding the

effects, drown myself in the

intellectual work so as

not influenced by

the social drawbacks of

existing and political life.

Politics was divorced in the vernacular sense (state policy) because the reform school - and in particular Muhammad Abdo - believed that the ummah was before the state and education before politics, and it was a shame for the Islamic movements to drown them in politics in the vernacular sense.

Intellectual work and immersion in it is a treatment even for the organic diseases that a person suffers from, and if Sufism is talking about halal wine and halal sugar, then I think that intellectual work is the sugar that keeps you away from life's troubles.

In the past I used to write without a draft;

I bring the book material (chips and splashes) and then write, then I found myself recently writing a draft that I review and then white, and write the draft on small pieces of red ballpoint pen, then I write on beautiful lined paper, and I make a margin for it with the ruler on both sides, and I write with a black ink pen because I photograph it later ;

Black ink appears clearer.

I write in the morning after breakfast until lunch, then take a rest and then write again.

In past periods, circumstances used to help writing more, but health conditions call for relief now, despite the fact that the intellectual project is large, and many of my books are turned into sources for me, and the great training in the use of sources has become a human aid, although I do not work on computers, but the experience in Sources and references help a person to reach what he wants easily, but the blessing is abundant, praise be to God.

Are you satisfied with

all what you

wrote?

-

There are books that I realized that reprinting them is not useful and in need of review, so these have stopped reprinting them, and I referred to this in my book list, and there are things that I wrote that I did not review except that I wrote what corrects them.

In some cases, she relied on some sources and then found that they were not reliable, such as the book 'The Imamate and Politics' (attributed to Ibn Qutaybah al-Dinawari, who died in 276 AH / 889 CE), and these writings were corrected.

But the march is long;

I started writing since 1948, and it is natural for ideas to develop and revisions take place in curricula and rulings, and those who do not review their ideas are the dead!

Therefore, I see intellectual reviews and intellectual development as an advantage and a virtue.

In addition;

There is the issue of priorities, and it differs from the reviews, for each stage has its own priorities and challenges. In the national phase, the focus was on the Arab circle more than the Islamic circle, and in the Islamic phase nationalism was included within the framework of the Islamic circle, then the focus was on Westernization and secular exaggeration.

What are the

main ideas that have

fallen about?

-

What you wrote about the national character of Islam;

I used to emphasize that religious monotheism is just a face, but the other side is the unity of the nation. I previously focused on national unity, but after that I focused on Islamic unity. I was influenced by the idea of ​​class struggle and then I adopted the theory of succession, the theory of the ummah, the theory of balance, social justice, social security and solidarity.

• You

write a lot, and too much may not be a virtue!

-

Because I was completely cut off from this work, and I was working 18 hours every day, and I paid a price in terms of health for that: cartilage, cervical vertebrae, and so on, and also disconnected from social relations, so even my relatives and children visit me more than I visit them, and people are familiar with this.

Another thing is that my books approached 240 books, but a hundred of them are pamphlets or extracts from books.

It may seem from your recent writings that you have become closer to Salafism, how do you see the matter?

-

I wrote a booklet on “One Salafism or Salafiyyah,” and wrote about it in the book “The Streams of Islamic Thought,” and Muhammad Abdo was talking about being a Salafi and wanted to understand the religion as understood by the predecessors of this nation before the dispute arose.

Every person is ancestor, everyone has a past, but what is your past?

Is it the era of prosperity or the era of decline?

How do you deal with your predecessor?

Do you migrate from the present to the past, or are you inspired by the ancestors and the past to read reality and solve reality problems?

So we have different advances.

So when I read Ibn Taymiyyah in recent years, I found amazing things in him, and some of the Salafists who read what I wrote about Ibn Taymiyyah told me: Our sheikhs did not read Ibn Taymiyyah and did not understand him!

In the Salafism, I always distinguish between the stage of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. Hegira 751 / AD 1350).

I also distinguish between the reaction of Imam al-Ash'ari (d. 324 AH / 936 CE), and between the stage of development of al-Ash’ari thought among al-Isfari (d. 418 AH / 1028 CE), al-Juwayni (d. 478 AH / 1085 CE) and al-Ghazali (d.505 AH / 1111 CE).

It is necessary to be aware of the idea of ​​the development of systems within the Islamic sects, and it is an idea that makes a person appear Salafi and progressive.

I consider myself a Salafi, progressive, revolutionary and an innovator at the same time, and there is no contradiction between these names, but it is necessary to control who your predecessor was?

How do you deal with it?

 •

Some accuse you of repeating yourself often. Some booklets are taken from other books. Some books are repeated with different titles and the content is one!

لدي مشروع فكري كبير، والتكرار وارد؛ فعندما أريد أن أكتب عن حسن حنفي مثلاً في كتاب ‘قراءة النص الديني‘ بين التأويل الغربي والتأويل الإسلامي والتأويلات العبثية، وأجد نفسي كتبت عن هذه القضية لدى سعيد العشماوي (ت 2013م)، فيمكن لي أن أستخدم النصوص السابقة مرة أخرى وهذا ليس تكرارًا، ولا أنكر التكرار في الجملة، ولكن إعادة استخدام موادّ سابقة ليس تكبيرًا لحجم المشروع، وإنما هي أشياء طبيعية في العمل الفكري.

ما أهم كتبك التي تعتبر أن فيها إضافة حقيقية؟

كتب كثيرة، مثل ‘معالم المنهج الإسلامي‘ الذي يتحدث عن معالم الوسطية الإسلامية، وهو كتاب فريد في بابه؛ وكذلك ما كتبته عن ‘تيارات الفكر الإسلامي‘ وفوضى المصطلحات، وما كتبته عن رد الشبهات عامة، وحول القرآن والسنة، والسماحة وحقوق الإنسان ومكانة المرأة، والسنة والشيعة، والحرب الدينية والجهاد، وما كتبته في مواجهة مشاريع التغريب والغلو التغريبي والغلو العلماني من الرد على نصر أبو زيد (ت 2010م) وحسن حنفي وسعيد العشماوي.

وكذلك ما كتبته عن المعارك الفكرية التي دارت حول الشعر الجاهلي وعلي عبد الرازق (ت 1966م) وحول سلامة موسى (ت 1958م) ومستقبل الثقافة، وعن سيد قطب (ت 1966م) وانتمائه الحضاري القديم عندما رد على كتاب طه حسين ‘مستقبل الثقافة‘ سنة 1938، وفي الرد على تيارات التغريب سواء في تحقيق تراث المدرسة الوسطية الإسلامية (سلسلة "الأعمال الكاملة")، أم في التراث القديم ككتاباتي عن ابن رشد (ت 595هـ/1199م) وتحقيق ‘فصل المقال‘ له، وتحقيق ‘رسائل العدل والتوحيد‘ (= رسائل مختلفة لمجموعة من أئمة المعتزلة)، وهي أعمال اكتشفت من خلالها المساحة المشتركة بين تيارات الفكر الإسلامي.

ما أهم ملامح هذا المشروع الفكري الذي تتحدث عنه باستمرار؟

أن نبرز حقيقة الإسلام ومعالمه: العقيدة والشريعة والمنظومة الفكرية، والإحياء الإسلامي للمجتمع، والهداية الإسلامية للإنسان، وعالمية الإسلام، وأيضًا فقه الواقع الذي نعيش فيه وإنزال هذه الأحكام الإسلامية على الواقع الذي نعيش فيه، والتصدي للحرب المعلنة على الإسلام. باختصار: ما هو إسلامنا؟ ما هو الواقع الذي نحن بحاجة إلى فقهه وإلى أسلمته؟ وما التحديات التي تواجه هذا الإسلام؟ هذه هي معالم المشروع الفكري.

هل ترى في هذا المشروع ميلاً نحو المحافظة بعد أن كنتَ ثوريًّا، وخاصة في المرحلة الأخيرة من حياتك؟

هذا ليس محافظة؛ فعندما أكتب عن غلاة العلمانية والمتغربين يبدو أنني محافظ، وعندما أكتب في نقد الجمود والتقليد يبدو أنني ثوري وتقدمي؛ هذا موضوع يتعلق بالمجال الذي أكتب فيه، لكن هناك معالم أساسية لا تتغير وهي: الحفاظ على رؤيتي للإسلام ومعالم الإسلام، وعملي الدؤوب لإنهاض وإخراج الأمة من عنق الزجاجة الذي وقعت فيه، ومواجهة التحديات الغربية الشرسة والحرب الصليبية المعلنة على الإسلام.

5- المعارك والخصومات:
يتهمك البعض أيضًا بأن لديك نزعة انفصالية تجاه الغرب؟

بالعكس كتبت منذ أكثر من 30 سنة كتاب ‘الغزو الفكري وهم أم حقيقة‘، وقدمت فيه نظرية للعلاقة بين الحضارات، هي ليست من اختراعي ولكنها قراءة لتاريخ هذه العلاقة. ليس هناك أسوار صينية بين الحضارات، فالانغلاق يذيب الشخصية، والتبعية والتقليد تذيب الذات وتمسخها. ولذلك ميزت بين المشترك الإنساني العام، وهذا لا تتغير قوانينه بتغير الحضارات، وبين البصمة الثقافية العقدية والفلسفية وفي الآداب والفنون، فكل حضارة لها بصمتها وتميزها الثقافي.

أنا معجب بسيد قطب عندما يتحدث عن عبقرية الحضارة الغربية في الإبداع المادي، ولذلك أنا لا أقيم قطيعة مع الحضارة الغربية، ولكنني أتحفظ على الجانب المادي والفلسفي والوثني الذي انتقل إلى الحضارة الغربية من الفكر اليوناني، ومن باب أولى الغزو والاستعمار للعالم الإسلامي، فأنا أنادي بالتفاعل بين الحضارات، وأهاجم القطيعة والتبعية.

كان ثمة هجوم عليك من الكنيسة القبطية، كيف تفسر ذلك؟

لأن الكنيسة القبطية ساد فيها مشروع عنصري قومي، وقد نشأت لدينا في مصر سنة 1952 جمعية اسمها "الأمة القبطية" تقول: مصر كلها وطننا، اغتصبها العرب والمسلمون قبل أربعة عشر قرنًا، اللغة القبطية هي لغتنا، الإنجيل دستورنا، المسيح زعيمنا.

اختلفت هذه الجماعة مع الكنيسة سنة 1954 فاختطفوا البطريرك ثم قُبض عليهم في أبريل/نيسان من العام نفسه من قبل نظام جمال عبد الناصر (ت 1970م)، وكان منهم البابا شنودة (ت 2012م) الذي دخل الدير في يوليو/تموز 1954 وظهر في 1971 وتبنت الكنيسة هذا المشروع العنصري، ومن هنا بدأت الفتنة الطائفية. لم تكن لدينا في مصر فتنة طائفية قبل مجيء البابا شنودة.

أنا سألت السؤال الذي لم يسأله أحد وهو: لماذا لم تكن بمصر فتنة طائفية قبل مجي البابا شنودة؟ الأمر الذي أغضبهم، وأيضًا لأني كتبت ردودًا على منشورات تنصيرية توزع في مصر، وكتبتها بحكم عضويتي في مجمع البحوث الإسلامية، فالدولة طلبت بيان الحكم الشرعي في هذا، ومجلة "الأزهر" نشرتها في ملحقها.

كتبت عن الفتنة الطائفية والمشروع العنصري الذي يريد إحلال اللغة القبطية محل العربية، والذي يقول بالنص: "إنك إذا قلت للقبطي: إنك عربي فهذه إهانة"، ولذلك أشدتُ بمكرم عبيد (ت 1961م) عندما كتب في ‘الهلال‘ في أبريل/نيسان 1939 "مصريون عرب"، فأثبت عروبة المصريين قبل الفتح الإسلامي، وكان يدافع في المحاكم ويقرأ القرآن ويقول: أنا مسيحي ديانةً مسلم وطنًا.

كيف تصف لنا علاقتك بالحركة الإسلامية عامة، وبالإخوان خاصة، وقد كنتَ مرتيْن الوسيطَ بين الإخوان والشيخ يوسف القرضاوي، وقدمتَ له عرض التنظيم بأن يكون المرشدَ العام؟

الإخوان يثقون بي ويحبونني، وأنا أعتبر التنظيم كبرى الحركات الإسلامية، خاصة في ظل حالة التشرذم في الحركة والأحزاب، فليس لدينا رصيد في الشارع إلا الإخوان. سبق أن كتبت نقدًا للحركات ومنهم الإخوان؛ لأنهم ركزوا على السياسة بالمعنى الدارج، وأهملوا المشروع الإصلاحي، كما أهملوا الحديث عن الاحتلال الذي تعيشه الأمة والقواعد العسكرية التي تنتشر في كل بلاد الأمة، والأساطيل التي تنتشر في البحار والمحيطات.

أيضًا الإخوان أهملوا العدل الاجتماعي، رغم أنني حين كتبت عن حسن البنا وجدته يطالب بالإصلاح الزراعي قبل الحزب الشيوعي المصري، وكان لديه برنامج اجتماعي ثوري، وكذلك خاض الشيخ الغزالي معركته ضد الظلم الاجتماعي، وحتى سيد قطب كتب ضد الظلم الاجتماعي، ولكن كل هذا غاب. الإخوان رصيد كبير لا ينبغي أن نفرط فيه، ويجب أن نسانده.

بعد وفاة الشيخ محمد الغزالي رحمه الله؛ يبدو أنك تحولت إلى فكرة رد الشبهات والدفاع عن الإسلام، وقد استغرق هذا منك الكثير من الجهد، وقد يُفهم هذا على أنه تراجع من البناء إلى الدفاع. ما خلفية هذا التحول؟

في آخر لقاء بيني وبين الشيخ الغزالي في منزله؛ دخل وأحضر لي آخر كتبه ‘نحو تفسير موضوعي للقرآن الكريم‘، وكتب لي إهداء أحسست أنه يحمّلني الأمانة، كتب لي: "إلى أخي الحبيب د. عمارة داعية الإسلام وحارس تعاليمه. محمد الغزالي"، ثم سافر بعد ذلك إلى الجنادرية (في السعودية)، فتوفي ودُفن هناك في البقيع.

ولي قصة مع الشيخ؛ فقد كنت أسمع به ولم تكن لي به صلة، وكان ثمة معركة بين المشايخ وعبد الرحمن الشرقاوي (ت 1987م) حول كتاباته اليسارية، فألقى الشيخ الغزالي محاضرة في قَطَر عن الغزو الفكري الذي يتمدد في فضائنا، وذكر من بين الأسماء الشرقاوي ومحمد عمارة، ثم حكى الشرقاوي هذا الكلام في مقال له في صحيفة ‘الأهرام‘.

صادف أن قرأت المقال وفيه اسمي، ولكنني لم أتأثر؛ لأنني كنت أحب الغزالي من بعيد، ثم بعد أن قرأ الشيخ مجموعة مقالات لي -ولم يكن قد قرأ لي شيئًا قبلها- أرسل إلي رسالة، وقال لي فيها كلامًا هزني من الأعماق. قال: قالوا لي عنك إنك تفسر الشريعة تفسيرًا ماديًّا، وما كان يليق بمثلي أن يحكم على الرجال من خلال مقالات الآخرين، وإن القليل الذي قرأته لك ردني إلى الصواب في أمرك، ولقد ذهبتُ إلى الذين حدثوني عنك فقلت لهم: هذا عقاد العصر، وهذا وهذا…!

يقودنا هذا إلى الشيخ محمد متولي الشعراوي (ت 1998م) أيضًا؛ فقد كان يدرّس البلاغة في طنطا وأنا طالب، ولم تكن لديه مواهب أكثر من مدرس بلاغة، ثم شاء الله -في حقبة الستينيات عندما علا صوت الفكر المادي- أن يظهر الشعراوي فجأة في مواجهة هذا.

التقيت به في 1992 عندما أقمنا لجنة لعمل صلح بين وزارة الداخلية وجماعات العنف، وتوثقت العلاقة بيننا فكان يعلق عليّ آمالا كبيرة، وفي آخر لقاء بيني وبينه يوم وفاة الشيخ جاد الحق (ت 1996م)، كان الناس يستقبلون المعزين وكان هو يجلس على كرسي، فحين دخلت انتفض واقفًا وعانقني وقبلني ثم رفع يديه إلى السماء وقال: "ربنا يجعل فيك العوض، ربنا يجعل فيك العوض"! أحسست أن جبلاً وُضع على أكتافي!

عملتَ فترة في الرقابة على الكتب وتقييمها، وكتابة تقارير فيها؛ فهل سبق لك أن أوصيتَ بمصادرة بعض الكتب التي قمتَ بتقييمها؟

بحكم القانون المصري؛ فإن مجمع البحوث الإسلامية ذو ولاية على الشأن الديني، ولذلك فإن الأعمال الفنية أو الفكرية التي لها علاقة بالإسلام يستشار فيها المجمع، ومنها الكتب الواردة من الخارج، وبحكم عضويتي في المجمع يحيلون إليّ رقابة بعض الكتب. وقد راجعت بعض الكتب التنصيرية، وكنت أول من اقترح الرد عليها لا أن يُكتفى بكتابة تقرير عنها، واقترحت أن تُنشر هذه الردود كملاحق في مجلة ‘الأزهر‘.

وفي هذا الإطار؛ راجعت بعض كتب عبد الكريم سروش، ورغم أنك تختلف معه لكن لا تصادَر كتبه وإنما تُناقش وتُنقد، وكذلك كتب جمال البنا (ت 2013م)، راجعت له ستة كتب أجزت له خمسة منها، والكتاب السادس كان عن المرأة وفيه يتحدث عن أن عورة المرأة هي الثديان، وحتى "المايو البكيني" لا لزوم له! راجعت كذلك كتابًا لسعيد العشماوي عن الأصول المصرية لليهودية، يقدم فيه اليهودية باعتبارها فكرًا مصريًّا لا دينًا، طبعا يكذّب القرآن ويكذّب الروايات القرآنية.

لا أحبذ مصادرة الكتب؛ لأنني أضع نفسي مكان الكاتب، ولي تجربة شخصية في هذا الشأن. ففي الستينيات قدمت كتابي ‘فجر اليقظة القومية‘ إلى "الدار المصرية للتأليف والترجمة" التابعة لوزارة الثقافة، فأجازه المراقب ولكن رئيس مجلس الإدارة لم يكن يريد نشره بسبب خلفيتي اليسارية، فأحاله مجددًا إلى الشيخ أمين الخولي (ت 1966م). وكان لي أحد الأصدقاء من تلامذة الشيخ، فكلمه في شأن الكتاب ولكن الشيخ لم يعجبه الأمر مخافة الشبهة!

ثم ذهبت إلى الشيخ الخولي لأول مرة سنة 1965 فقال لي: أختلف معك في كذا وكذا، لكن لك وجهة نظر، ولديك أسلوب مميز فاحرص عليه. كتب الخولي عن كتابي تقريرًا إيجابيًّا لم يُكتب من قبلُ، وعندما ذهبت إلى الدار المصرية أسألهم عن الكتاب رحبوا بي وقدموا لي قهوة! ولكن رئيس مجلس الإدارة كان مصرًّا على عدم نشره، فأرسله مجددًا إلى مكتب جمال عبد الناصر للشؤون العربية برئاسة حسن صبري الخولي (ت 1985م)، فأحال الكتاب إلى المعهد العالي للدراسات الاشتراكية.

صادف أن من أُحيل إليه الكتاب قرأ كتابي الأول عن القومية العربية وكان معجبًا بأفكاري، فأجاز الكتاب ثم حصلت على مكافأة مئة جنيه. ولكنني كنت قد أنفقتها وأنا أجري وراء الكتاب. ولذلك عندما أفحص الكتب أضع نفسي أمام المؤلف، وبقيت لسنوات طويلة أراجع الكتب الإسلامية في الهيئة العامة للكتاب، وأنقذت مؤلفين من الإهمال كانوا قد شُطبت أسماؤهم؛ ولكنني اكتشفت فيهم عبقرية. مهمتي أن أبدي ملاحظاتي والمؤلف يعيد النظر فيها ثم يُجاز الكتاب. فأنا أحرص على الاحتفاظ بضمير المؤلف والمبدع في التعامل مع الكتب.