Pascal Ory, Historian.

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Emmanuel Pain - Bretons

Bretons:

The idea for this book came to you in 1968, do you write, especially from discussions with Breton nationalist militants ...

Pascal Ory: Yes.

I remember a discussion that had marked me, on identity.

I was in front of this generation which was mine, which was 20 years old in 1968. Regarding the identity dimension, in France, we were faced with a resurgence of what is called regionalism or nationalism, but rooted in left.

Which was nevertheless, especially for the Breton movement, a novelty.

I had comrades of my age, who had hearts on the left or even on the far left, and who were nationalists, with nuances: regionalists, autonomists, separatists ...

I was born in Fougères.

I was thinking of Gide's sentence, responding to Barrès: “Born in Paris, of an Uzetian father and a Norman mother, where do you want, Mr. Barrès, that I take root?”

I saw that some nationalists around the world, including in Brittany, had identity problems to settle.

The greatest Irish radical nationalist in the 20th century, Éamon de Valera, had a Spanish father!

He solved his identity problem by choosing the mother.

I was wondering.

Personally, I was Breton only because of my place of birth and my secondary studies, carried out in Rennes.

I also inaugurated the Villejean campus where I had lively discussions with the leftist leader of the time, Jean-Yves Le Drian… And then, my mother was Breton, but Bretonne Gallèse, from the region of Window.

This had therefore triggered in me a reflection on identity, which had resulted in a seminar at Sciences Po, in 1988, and in this book, many years later.

You give this definition of the nation: “When a people becomes the People”.

What does that mean ? 

Indeed, I tried to give an answer to the question posed by the title of the book.

There is therefore a people: a historical adventure, which creates a cultural identity.

In past centuries, this identity may have been religious, but not only.

History causes some of these peoples to disappear from the face of the Earth.

History is not humanistic.

Thousands of peoples have disappeared, most of them without leaving a name.

It has always fascinated me.

Why, for example, are there Estonians, but also Lithuanians and Latvians?

Why not just the Balts?

Why not just Russians?

This is the adventure of a people.

But this is not enough.

Peoples can go back to the highest Antiquity or be recent - the very term Estonian only dates back to the 19th century - but they must encounter an extraordinary invention under which we still live, popular sovereignty.

It is a real revolution of modern times: power is no longer in Heaven or I do not know where, it is in the people.

So we invent the People.

This could lead to populism, where the People are right, against the elites, for example.

When a people becomes the People, it gives a nation.

Then, to achieve a nation-state, a minimum of mobilization, even fighting or even frank war, is needed, a favorable situation.

This is why we can currently wonder about Kurdistan or the Uighurs.

It is not the courage of the dominated that counts, the central power must weaken.

(...)

Find the rest of this interview in the Bretons magazine n ° 172 of February 2021.

This article is produced by the Bretons magazine and hosted by 20 Minutes.

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