The final interview Read here all published
PETER C. GØTZSCHE (Næstved, Denmark, 1949) Biologist, physician and researcher.
In his new book,
Vaccines
(Captain Swing), he talks about the truths, the lies, and the controversies surrounding them.
Including vaccines against the coronavirus.
What would the world be like without vaccines?
Without vaccines, millions of people would have died.
Only in smallpox epidemics, a third of the population could have died.
In England, for example, parents didn't really know if their children would get ahead before there was a smallpox vaccine.
In recent years, however, some people have developed the "romantic" idea that vaccines are something that goes against nature and that it is better for children to pass an illness rather than vaccinate against it.
What is wrong with that belief?
First of all, that idea is wrong from a scientific point of view.
And secondly, it is unethical for some parents to refuse to vaccinate their children because those children can die, for example, if they are not given the measles vaccine.
In addition, there are many other things that are against nature and that nevertheless we do and value.
Saving the lives of many patients would be, in a certain sense, something against nature.
And it would also be unnatural to use antibiotics when someone may die from an infection.
It is a horrible and dangerous plot that kills people.
How do you explain the huge rise in the vaccine denial movement in recent years?
I'm not sure it has grown that much.
It is primarily an American phenomenon.
Here in Denmark, for example, it is something very minor.
And in the United States it is also small: it affects 1-2% of the population.
In your book you also denounce that behind the vaccine deniers in many cases a fabulous business is hidden ... That's right.
Some of the people who are against vaccines are pure charlatans who sell a lot of useless things, such as large doses of vitamin C, which can actually kill.
Some people like that are really dangerous.
In 1998 the magazine 'The Lancet' published an article linking the measles vaccine to the onset of autism, which was later shown to be absolutely false.
Do you think the rise in the vaccine denial movement could be related to that?
The case of Andrew Wakefield, the author of that article, is truly sad.
For starters, the alleged research he published in
The Lancet
was a complete fraud.
And even so, there are still many people who consider him a hero on the same level as for example Galileo, especially in the United States, where he has many followers.
I even think that he got in touch with Donald Trump, another person who also constantly lies.
Do you think that the pharmaceutical industry has any responsibility for the increase in the number of vaccine deniers?
Yes, definitely.
About seven years ago I published a book in Spain called
Medicines that kill
.
Prescription drugs are the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.
Medicines kill millions of people every year.
And most of those who have died did not even need those drugs that have killed them.
It is a great tragedy.
And the drug companies are cheating in that sense, they are committing fraud.
Many people no longer trust drug companies, and unfortunately that contributes to a second thought before getting vaccinated.
What do you think of the coronavirus vaccines?
For now there are three vaccines.
And so far they are having an incredibly positive effect.
Those three vaccines have been tested in thousands of people: 50 of them developed severe cases of Covid-19 and only one was in the vaccination groups, the remaining 49 were in the control groups, a very, very impressive result.
So even though things can be criticized in those tests, my expectation is that those vaccines will substantially reduce mortality from Covid-19.
And that is something that we will see quite soon, because in a short time millions of people are being vaccinated.
If vaccines reduce mortality, as I believe they will, we will see it in a fairly short period of time.
But on the other hand ... on the other hand what?
Well, two of those three vaccines use messenger RNA, a technique that had not been used before in vaccines and in which the RNA tells the cells to produce a protein equal to one found on the surface of the coronavirus so that the immune system can react against it.
But the tests that have been done have been so short that we have absolutely no idea what the long-term harms of these vaccines may be.
In reality, serious long-term harm from a vaccine is quite rare.
But I can give you an example, which is also in my book: 12 years ago there was a swine flu pandemic and many people were vaccinated against it.
And years later it was discovered that one of the vaccines used had caused narcolepsy in more than 1,000 people, a very serious life-long disease for which there is no treatment and that causes extreme daytime sleepiness, to the point of making a person falls asleep suddenly.
This is a recent example of a vaccine causing such severe damage that it should not have been used.
But the probability of something like this happening with the coronavirus vaccine is very low, since it is something that in the history of vaccines has happened very rarely.
What I really hope is that these vaccines against the coronavirus can give us back the lives that have been stolen from us.
But that doesn't mean that everyone has to get vaccinated ... Does it?
And who should not get vaccinated against the coronavirus?
Children, for example: tolerate the coronavirus very well, so there is no reason why they need to be vaccinated.
And even less so if you live in a country with very few infections such as Taiwan, the country that has best tackled this pandemic in the world and where only seven people out of a total of 23 million inhabitants have died of Covid-19.
If I lived in Taiwan, I would not get vaccinated.
Do you think, however, that in those countries with a high infection rate, such as Spain, Italy, France or the United Kingdom, vaccination against the coronavirus should be mandatory?
No, that would be a huge mistake.
In countries where there have been a high number of deaths there are many people who want to be vaccinated, in fact the majority of the population of those countries will be vaccinated, I have no doubt about it.
And if the coronavirus vaccines are as good as they appear to be, very soon we will be able to say that we have beaten the pandemic, which will be wonderful.
But getting vaccinated cannot be mandatory.
I dedicate an entire chapter of my book to this matter, and in my opinion mandatory vaccination would be completely unacceptable on ethical grounds.
What you have to do is convince people with good arguments.
It is not about sending the police after a person, immobilizing them and injecting them with the vaccine, because that would be a flagrant violation of human rights and it cannot happen.
Also, doing that would mean giving people who are against vaccines ammunition ... If we send the police to vaccinate people, the anti-vaccines will get stronger.
I hope something like this never happens.
Do we then have a collective responsibility, as a society, to vaccinate ourselves in order to stop the coronavirus?
Well, I consider for example that it is unethical to demand that children be vaccinated to protect the elderly.
All vaccines carry a risk, and we do not know the long-term risk of these three new coronavirus vaccines.
Imagine the worst-case scenario, imagine that all children are vaccinated to protect the elderly and that later, in one or two years, some terrible disease began to manifest itself in those children, as we saw with narcolepsy ten years ago.
It would be absolutely unacceptable.
You cannot use some people for the benefit of others, it is not correct from an ethical point of view.
Many medications also cause side effects and that is not why we stop using them.
Shouldn't we just accept that vaccines can cause side effects in some people, like medicines do?
This is not what I am talking about.
We are talking about whether it is necessary to vaccinate children against the coronavirus.
And I believe that, for the children's own good, they should not be vaccinated.
It may not be necessary in Taiwan.
But are you against being vaccinated in Western European countries?
I am neither for nor against anything.
I only interpret the scientific data.
And scientific data says that children do not need to be vaccinated.
In Denmark, my country, for example vaccinating children against the flu is not recommended.
And from what we have seen so far in children, the coronavirus is no worse than the flu, it can even be less harmful.
And if we don't vaccinate children against the flu, there is no good reason why we should vaccinate them against the coronavirus now.
Are you going to get the coronavirus vaccine?
Not yet.
I'm going to wait for millions of people to get vaccinated to see if those vaccines have any negative side effects.
And how long do you plan to wait to see those possible side effects?
Because maybe those effects take years to show ... I might change my mind, I'm just trying to be honest with you.
And for now I'm not going to get vaccinated.
If I receive an email from the health services inviting me to be vaccinated because of my age, I will simply ignore it.
Before getting vaccinated, I want to see what happens when millions of people do.
My personal risk, which is what we should all value, is low.
It is true that my age, 71, plays against me.
But except for age I have no other risk factors.
Although I am officially retired, I still work on many things, but I work from home and see very few people.
They don't even allow me to play tennis, which is quite absurd because there can only be a maximum of four people on a tennis court.
And since I can't play tennis, I go for a run in the woods.
I am not at risk of being infected with the coronavirus.
And if my risk of catching and getting sick with coronavirus is this low, I don't see why I should get vaccinated.
Already.
But if everyone acted like you then no one would get vaccinated and the pandemic would run its course ... Don't worry.
There are not as many people as me who have carefully studied the evidence.
But what do you think is better and more effective: get vaccinated against a disease or fall ill and then medicate against that particular disease?
It depends on each disease and each vaccine, it cannot be generalized.
But in the case of the coronavirus, for example, everything points very clearly to the fact that it is better to be vaccinated than not to be vaccinated.
Vaccines are the best remedies we have in the field of health care.
Vaccinations are usually something absolutely fantastic.
According to the criteria of The Trust Project
Know more
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See links of interest
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