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WORLD:
Are the anti-corona protests getting more radical?
Torsten Voß:
We are dealing with a phenomenon that in Hamburg and other countries was not previously the responsibility of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution.
But of course we notice what is happening here: Some demonstrations, such as in Leipzig or Berlin, end in violence.
There were also attacks such as the Robert Koch Institute (RKI), which, according to self-accusations, was committed by opponents of the corona policy.
This is a first step towards radicalization.
WORLD:
So far only a first step?
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Voss:
We are analyzing to what extent certain sections of corona deniers and conspiracy ideologues as extremists will become a case for us constitutional protectors.
This could be the case in two ways.
First: The classic case, as we have in Hamburg, for example, at the so-called “Merkel must go” series of meetings, which is now under the motto “Michel, wake up at last”.
When people we are already observing, such as right-wing extremists or citizens of the Reich, shape, control or infiltrate these gatherings.
Baden-Württemberg is now observing “lateral thinking 711” because they are discovering infiltration and networking with Reich citizens and right-wing extremists.
So far we have had individual extremist participants in Hamburg.
Second, it would be a case for the Protection of the Constitution if we are dealing with extremism “out of itself”.
WORLD:
What kind of extremism could that be?
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Voss:
It's not about criticism of politics, it is of course legitimate and not a case for the protection of the constitution.
However, we see people claiming that the virus doesn't even exist.
This implies that the state is lying and taking active action against the population.
And some then take this assumption as an opportunity to question the state and its democratic institutions as a whole during demonstrations.
The state practically invented the virus to restrict fundamental rights.
That could be seen as a position against the free democratic basic order.
WORLD:
The denial of the virus falls under freedom of expression.
Voss:
Denial alone, absolutely.
But if this position as a bridge leads to the assumption that the state is inventing a virus to control its own population, if conspiracy-ideological or anti-Semitic argumentation patterns are added, then the threshold has been exceeded.
We have to assess this from a technical point of view so that any measures taken in court are also valid.
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WORLD:
How exactly have you checked that?
Voss:
We have already set up a working group in the federal and state constitution protection group.
There we continuously exchange knowledge, for example to what extent a new conspiracy extremism could arise.
Reich citizens who reject the existence of our state from the ground up and would therefore be absolutely a case for the protection of the constitution could then also be classified under such conspiracy extremism.
WORLD:
Would everyone at an anti-corona demo be an extremist?
Voss:
No, of course not.
Almost everyone knows from their own circle of friends that there is also clear criticism of the measures.
Many also do not want to be vaccinated.
That is what characterizes a democratic discourse, and that doesn’t make you an enemy of the constitution.
It becomes interesting for us if it is an extremist endeavor, a networked organizational group, structures.
We don't watch everyone who goes to a demo.
As a democratic early warning system, we would say clearly when extremists organize such gatherings.
WORLD:
Often we are dealing with a mere idea in this area.
QAnon, for example, adopts an international elite that controls fate around the globe, makes children disappear and drinks their blood.
Anyone who believes in these anti-Semitic stories is not organized in any association.
Voss:
The Office for the Protection of the Constitution does not evaluate attitudes, but rather efforts against democracy.
And this endeavor must be reflected in a network and organization.
It is not enough for someone to say: "I am a follower of QAnon".
Much is covered by freedom of expression.
WELT
: Then there is no room for maneuver for your authority.
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Voß:
So far, QAnon has mainly taken place on the Internet.
We look at: is there a structure?
Are there supra-regional networks?
The basic structure of QAnon is certainly relevant to the protection of the constitution, also because of anti-Semitic argumentation patterns.
We keep an eye on whether there are any links with right-wing extremists and Reich citizens - and then we can and must act.
WORLD:
To what extent do you see overlaps between AfD and the anti-corona protests?
Voss:
A proximity of certain parts of the AfD and Corona skeptics has been noticed for months.
In addition, according to our findings, there are connections between leadership figures of the local “lateral thinking” offshoot and right-wing extremists from the immediate environment of the right-wing extremist group of organizers of the “Michel wake up” series of protests and the AfD sub-structure “Der Flügel”.
WORLD:
Soon the protection of the constitution will have to decide whether the AfD will be classified as a suspected right-wing extremist.
Intelligence tools can then be used against the party and its members.
Has the party radicalized?
Voss:
As the protection of the constitution, we provide information about objects under observation, not about suspected cases.
In this respect, I ask for your understanding that I am a little cautious here.
As a secured right-wing extremist observation object nationwide, we have had the AfD sub-structure "Der Flügel" since March of this year.
In Hamburg, too, we have AfD supporters who support the “wing”.
In the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, we will keep a close eye on how the influence of right-wing extremists is developing.