Luis Garicano: "Sánchez does not have a plan, he is a tactician; his partners do: democratic involution"

• Politics.Pablo Iglesias sews the Frankestein Government of Pedro Sánchez

• Politics. Albert Rivera on a possible pact for Budgets: "One can be lax, but you have to have dignity"

The spokesman for Citizens in Europe and vice president of the European liberal group has been immersed in the negotiation of the recovery fund for months, of which he is very satisfied.

From outside the organic life of his party, he defends the current strategy of Cs.

He is very critical of Pedro Sánchez, but he is committed to trying to make the president choose another route.

He has described as "an infamy" that the Government agrees on the Budgets with Bildu.

Should Citizens get up from the table, which is an infamy

it is that the president is including in his governance project for Spain people who want to destroy it.

And some who have been until very recently killing their own companions.

And they have never apologized or repented.

he is offering with his outstretched hand an alternative path to nationalism.

That is the historic mission of Ciudadanos to avoid a return to the two Spains.

Is it okay for Ciudadanos to negotiate with the Government at the same time as it does with Bildu?

It seems good to me that Cs offers an alternative route.

He is telling the president that what he does is not necessary, and that is shared by many socialist leaders and voters.

It is an infamy to negotiate with Bildu, who has said that he is coming to end the regime;

the regime is our freedoms and our democracy.

You marked distances last year with

for his veto to negotiate with the PSOE.

Now the opposite is happening.

Was this the strategy you supported?

I have always defended what

Albert rivera

called overcoming the Spain of reds and blues.

A Spain with a vast majority of the center, with moderate policies and with the union that is reflected in Europe, where we govern in coalition socialists, liberals and

.

In Spain it is impossible for this vast majority to be reflected because the parties always choose confrontation. The criticism of what they are doing

it is perfectly compatible with trying to get him to do something different.

That is politics.

Criticizing him is fine, but if an alternative is not offered, it is useless.

Are you more comfortable in Ciudadanos chaired by Inés Arrimadas than in Albert Rivera's?

I am comfortable in both.

We have to maintain our defense of the unity of the Spanish, of the reforms, the modernization of the economy and the fight against corruption and cronyism.

Do you agree to support a six-month state of alarm with little parliamentary scrutiny?

I did not participate in the negotiation of that measure and I prefer not to comment on it.

[Cs spokesperson at

] has many more elements of judgment and is a legal expert.

Some former leaders of Ciudadanos accuse the leadership of "whitewashing Sánchez and his associates."

What do you think?

It is Sánchez who is whitewashing and making room for populism in his government.

You have to listen to populists because what they say they want to do is what they do.

Bildu says he wants to destroy the regime and

, end the regime of

.

But former leaders of his party say that Cs is also blanking them by making a pact with Sánchez.

What Inés Arrimadas is doing is very difficult: she is reaching out, and she is taking it as far as possible.

We must avoid confrontation and defend harmony.

Are the former leaders who make these and other public criticisms being loyal to Cs?

I believe in freedom of expression and in accepting discrepancy.

The parties exaggerate discipline;

it is good that there is internal debate.

As there should be in the

.

There are socialist leaders who are criticizing the pacts of the

, like the presidents of

and of

.

Some socialists are trying to limit this drift that Sánchez himself imposed on himself when he said he would never do so.

We have become accustomed to the president saying one thing one day and the other the opposite with this avalanche of horrific announcements and assaults on common sense.

Sánchez has been in government for two and a half years now.

What credit do you have in Europe?

Credit is running out.

The president arrived with the wind in his favor, speaking English.

But Europe is built on two pillars: economic stability and respect for the rule of law.

His most recent proposals - the reform to elect the

or the priorities of

- they are making Sánchez's credit run out very quickly.

We are on the way to a situation similar to that experienced by Spain with

.

They have given an open bar to the municipalities;

they have increased the current spending of the ministries;

investment has not increased and there are no reforms.

All this in Europe is very frowned upon.

How would it be seen in Europe that the Budgets are agreed with the independentistas who gave an institutional coup in Catalonia and with the Batasuna heirs?

You have to look at the coalitions that govern Europe and are socialist, liberal or popular.

If the president prefers to agree with anti-system and populist parties instead of with Cs, it will damage the image of Spain.

How has the proposal to reform the election of the Judiciary look in Brussels?

Very bad.

I spoke with the commissioners of the liberal group and there was disbelief.

Europe constantly recommends that the independence of the judiciary be guaranteed because doing so is a basic violation of European principles.

Could this really block European funds?

Yes. This week a mechanism has been put in place that conditions the receipt of all funds on respect for the rule of law.

How has the

, an organ controlled by

What would distinguish information from fake news?

What has been most surprising is that the people who are in charge of government communication are the ones who decide if the media does their job correctly or if there is false news.

We all want to fight against disinformation, but we cannot take advantage of that loophole to undertake an assault on freedom of expression and opinion.

Taking into account the possible pacts for the Budgets and these reforms, do you think that we are witnessing a democratic involution?

There is a real risk of that happening.

The president has no plan, he is a very tactical person.

But Pablo Iglesias does have it and he has told us many times: about the private property of the media, about the freedom of the press, about the independence of the Judiciary ... It reminds me of the nationalists, who had a plan to 30 years ahead and they were always in the same direction while Spanish politicians were giving in.

Sánchez is a tactician and his partners have a plan, so it is clear where we can end: in democratic involution.

That is what Ciudadanos tries to avoid with a different route.

Would this have been avoided if last year the PSOE and Cs had agreed to govern, which numbered 180 deputies?

I have always thought that it was the best option for Spain, the coalition of 180 deputies.

Sánchez did not put it on the table.

Albert Rivera put it on, late but he put it on.

You have traded the recovery fund.

Europe has responded better, faster and with more unity than in 2008. Have we learned from the mistakes of that crisis?

We have learned a lot and I am very satisfied with the European response.

There was a month and a half of doubts, terrible, in which the borders were closed.

But immediately there was a united reaction from Europe, the opposite of what happened in the financial crisis.

We have a huge recovery fund with a basic principle: direct help to get out of the hole, without going into debt.

Will Spain come out of this deep crisis thanks to this fund?

Europe is the only thing that keeps Spain stable politically and economically.

It is the only thing that keeps Spain away from the Latin American path of underdevelopment, which it undertook

50 years ago or that of

with Chavismo.

That is why I am doing everything possible to maintain those two anchors from Europe: the rule of law and economic stability.

But we cannot depend only on Europe.

What should be done from Spain to consolidate the rule of law and stability?

Spain needs a focused and moderate way to face the most important crisis since the Transition.

Solutions never come from extremes;

they come from the consensus of moderate and sensible parties.

But Spain is very far from a PSOE-PP or PSOE-Cs consensus.

We are very far away and many Spaniards are worried and scared.

The only element for a minimum optimism would be for Sánchez to regain his leadership and to establish his government project in a much more focused way.

Have you lost leadership?

It seems that Pablo Iglesias has abdicated;

You just have to remember the announcement of the pact with Bildu.

Would a bad exit from the crisis promote populisms?

Yes.

Y

They have not faced their problems for many years.

Italy has not grown since 1995. It got into a lot of debt in the

Y

and stopped growing.

That has destroyed the Italian political system and left it in the hands of populists.

Greece abandoned all its reforms when it entered the euro and suddenly found itself in unbearable indebtedness and had to go wild afterward.

If Spain does not take advantage of the historical opportunity that Europe gives us to make reforms and lay the foundations for the future, we have two possibilities: the Italian secular stagnation and the loss of the European or Greek train, a new intervention. The Government is managing this crisis completely through short term, with

million for one year and 27,000 for the next;

save two years with European money and then we already have elections.

From a political point of view it can serve them, but from an economic point of view it would be catastrophic.

Is this intervention on the horizon in the short or medium term?

If we continue without making reforms, in 2021 the whole world will turn a blind eye to the health crisis; in 2022 there is still the

.

But in 2023, when the recovery fund runs out, the Zapatero moment may come.

I suppose that Sánchez will call the general elections before Europe comes with the cuts.

Cuts like the financial crisis or worse?

It could be worse if we arrive with huge debt and deficit figures without having done our homework.

Europe has rescued us once, in 2012;

and he's going to rescue us now.

The question is, will he rescue us a third time?

We should never get to that point.

You have to do what is necessary to avoid it.

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