"We all need to regret the beginning of a new war": the President of Armenia - on the situation in Karabakh and the prospects for a settlement

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- First of all, I would like to thank RT, and the leadership, and you, Ilya, for organizing this interview.

As you said, times are tough, and it’s essential to talk at times like this — especially with friends.

I see RT as a friendly news organization, impartial, independent, and besides, a TV channel that can provide people with correct, truthful information.

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- A direct answer to your question: unfortunately, no, the ceasefire is not fully observed.

And these are not only my words.

This is recognized by many international observers, including from the Armenian side.

A couple of hours ago, this was acknowledged by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Sergei Lavrov.

And I will say again: this is regrettable, because violation of the ceasefire regime entails bombing, shelling, and the death of even more people - both on the front line between Nagorno-Karabakh (or Artsakh) and Azerbaijan, and among innocent civilians ...

- Are there any violations by Armenia?

And if so, why are they happening?

- Perhaps now is not the best time and place to discuss non-compliance with the ceasefire.

Are there violations or not?

There are definitely violations.

And, as far as I understand, if one side violates this regime, the other is responsible.

So there are violations, this is regrettable, and I believe that all parties need to make a lot of efforts to stop this.

And, of course, it is extremely important to have a mechanism to determine the side that violates the ceasefire.

This can be established in various ways - at the international level, using technology.

But there must be such a mechanism, because until the ceasefire regime is fully established, none of the parties will be able to use its humanitarian component.

And, of course, the International Red Cross will not be able to work there, which was asked to take part in humanitarian actions.

Therefore, it is imperative to establish, monitor and enforce a ceasefire.

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- In my reply, I will try to note a few points.

First, with regard to the bombing or shelling of Ganja in Azerbaijan, I have clear information from my government, from the Ministry of Defense, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (and the Foreign Minister has already said this in his interviews even to Al Jazeera) that this shelling was definitely not Armenia.

Secondly, you are talking about a violation of the ceasefire.

Unfortunately, immediately after the announcement of the ceasefire at 12:00, Stepanakert, the capital of the Artsakh Republic, was shelled.

And I mean, among other things, the shelling of civilians.

Thirdly, in this case, one should not forget who started this stage of the war.

This was clearly done by the Azerbaijani side, and not by the people of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic of Artsakh.

And it began, alas, not with shelling, bombing or fighting on the front line, but with the bombing of the Karabakh capital Stepanakert - civilians and civilian objects (because there are no military facilities in Stepanakert).

And bombing civilians (in villages or cities, including the capital, Martakert, and other cities) is an act of gross violation of human rights.

- But could we return to my previous question: are disagreements possible within the Armenian armed forces?

Could there be some other way of looking at how to wage this war?

- If you mean Armenia and the Ministry of Defense, then I am sure that they adhere to a single opinion, and not only a single opinion, but also a single course of action, which is set by the government, the Prime Minister's administration, the Ministry of Defense, the General Staff, and so on.

The reason is simple: the prime minister, as the highest government official, leads all of this activity.

If I had any information of this kind, I would be the first to pick up the phone and contact the Minister of Defense and the Prime Minister.

But I have no information from the category of those you are talking about.

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“This war has been going on for over two weeks.

Now, when a ceasefire has been declared, it is being conducted partially, and before that there were full-scale military operations.

And to go into details like this, whether it was a provocation or not, these are all details ... In general, the situation is as follows: on September 27, Azerbaijan decided that it was no longer interested in continuing negotiations in the format of the OSCE Minsk Group.

In fact, for one reason or another, there, in Baku, they decided to go back 30 years to the past, when the first Karabakh war began, and again try to resolve the issue by military force.

And I (not only as the president of the republic, but also as a person who has been following this entire process for many years) can assure you: I not only do not believe in such a decision, but even at the logical level, such a solution does not exist.

Because fighting for your home is a matter where mathematics will not help.

The point here is not in numbers, not in how many bombs and shells you have and what technical means you have at your disposal.

Maybe it helps early on, on the first day, in the first or second week, but then the question of what you are fighting for comes to the fore.

And in the case of Nagorno-Karabakh, or the people of Artsakh, these people are fighting for their homes and their homeland.

And homeland is not some abstract concept, it is the house in which they, and their grandfathers, and the grandfathers of their grandfathers lived, and so on for millennia.

They lived and created a special culture, and this culture is Armenian, because they are Armenians, but who lived in a special region, they are very proud.

A people who know how to stand up for themselves and have demonstrated this throughout their history ... Invaders have come there since the times of Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, the Persian Empire, and so on.

This nation was also proudly part of the Russian Empire, but was never part of Azerbaijan.

The Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic received Nagorno-Karabakh as a great gift from Comrade Stalin - for 65 years.

But even during these 65 years, Nagorno-Karabakh had autonomy with the absolute majority of the Armenian population.

But now we come to the main question.

Why, in the 65 years that Azerbaijan, let's say, was in charge of Nagorno-Karabakh (because we were all part of a larger state, or empire - the Soviet Union), and under the supervision of the Soviet leadership, Azerbaijan managed not to win the confidence of the people of Nagorno-Karabakh?

This is a very important word - "trust".

It is one of the reasons why in 1991 the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh, the people of Nagorno-Karabakh decided with the collapse of the Soviet Union that they were ready to vote in a referendum organized according to all the rules and choose independence.

Why did it happen?

There was a lack of what is indicated in one word - trust.

They did not believe that Azerbaijan was the country with which they could live.

Indeed, even under Soviet rule, Azerbaijan did everything to oust the Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh.

Closed schools ...

For many Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians, Russian was the first language for many years - and for a simple reason: they spoke Armenian in the family, but went to Russian schools, because they did not want to go to Azerbaijani.

And how can anyone think that the people of Nagorno-Karabakh can trust Azerbaijan now?

After the first war, after the second war, after the death of such a number of people, believe him about the autonomy within Azerbaijan ?!

I think this is impossible.

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- You should never oversimplify difficult political situations.

You cannot simplify human behavior and reduce everything to some simple formula “what is more important to me”.

Everything is important, because these things are interconnected.

I believe human lives are the number one priority.

Under any circumstances ... For me personally, human life is the most important thing.

And if we are talking about the resolution of the Karabakh issue (and indeed any conflict), then it is necessary that the central pivot in such a decision or process should be just human life.

Here, neither age, nor race, nor skin color, nor religion matters ... Human life is an absolute value.

So, human life, but how to protect it?

With the help of specific institutions or specific guarantees.

In this case, this is the status of your state, or is it a soldier who stands at the border.

All this is interconnected.

This is not to say that one is more important here than the other.

The most important thing in the end is human life.

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- Which republic?

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- Not ready for what?

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- Historically, these people have always fought.

Of course, it never goes without criticism - against any government.

Have you seen a government that is not criticized even with major victories?

There is always regret: "Eh, now I understand that this should have been done before!"

But in this case, we all need to regret starting a new war.

And this decision was not made by the people of Nagorno-Karabakh, not by the leadership of Nagorno-Karabakh and not by the leadership of Armenia.

This decision was made by Azerbaijan, which started this war two weeks ago and will bear moral responsibility for it.

This war was not started by Karabakh.

“But that doesn't mean that it could not have been foreseen.

- In fact, yes, of course.

I think the war never ended in Karabakh.

Even with the ceasefire in 1994, I would say, in diplomatic language, that we all failed here to stay on the path of negotiations and dialogue.

And if, in the case of Nagorno-Karabakh, we ask the residents of Nagorno-Karabakh: “What is victory for you?” ...

For them, victory is simply to defend their homeland, nothing more.

There is no need for a larger Azerbaijani territory or anything else.

Just defend your homeland, your homes and families.

If we ask the Azerbaijanis, then (judging by the comments of the Azerbaijani side) for them victory is Nagorno-Karabakh without Armenians.

In the modern world, there is a name for this: it is called ethnic cleansing.

Even if we manage to carry out ethnic cleansing, this war, a war between people, will never end.

Maybe there will be no physical war, maybe you will control the territory, but the human, moral struggle will continue.

An example is the Armenian genocide, carried out 105 years ago.

One and a half million people died.

Is it over?

No.

Why isn't it over?

There are so many countries in the world that have recognized the Armenian genocide (including the Russian Federation), so many countries that blame Turkey, so many countries that, when they look at what is happening in Nagorno-Karabakh (including the millions of Armenians who live in diasporas), now they interpret the events in and around Nagorno-Karabakh - especially with the participation of Turkey - as another attempt at genocide, ethnic cleansing.

Sorry, but when we talk about the fact that someone is demanding the Nagorno-Karabakh territories from the Armenians, who can claim them?

This nation has been living there for millennia.

- Do you agree that the air defense system suffered a complete fiasco?

After all, the republic has been destroyed.

I understand that you are not the Minister of Defense, but still ...

- That's one question.

Let's take a second.

Or two or three more.

- Another, perhaps, will sound like this: what is the ultimate goal of the Armenian government, when the current escalation, let's hope, ends?

- As you yourself noted, I am not the Minister of Defense, I do not deal in detail with these or those defense systems.

I'll talk about something else.

In this new war era, the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic had what it had.

So?

In our new world, military means, technology, weapons are very closely linked with finances and money.

Let's look at this issue from a different angle, as it is done very often in the last two months, especially Turkey.

When Turkey entered this conflict ... And I must say that it has always participated in it - with consultations, assistance, planning and so on, but this time it acts very openly and, let's say, assertively.

She got involved in all this, which can be traced in political statements, in the wording of the president, the minister of foreign affairs, a very aggressive attitude, up to the presence of the military - from generals to advisers ...

- His

- You don't even have to prove it.

And, of course, Turkey sent Islamic militants and terrorists to Azerbaijan - and I also don't need to prove this, because now it is recognized at the international level by many, including the Russian Federation, by the relevant Russian departments.

But, as usual, Turkey needed a pretext for action.

Why on earth would you act like that?

One of the pretexts is “Azerbaijanis are our ethnic brothers”.

Well, in the modern world this does not work, because you have ethnic brothers up to Central Asia, Mongolia, to the north of China.

Are you ready to intervene in any problem that your "ethnic brothers" face there?

Maybe yes.

Because when I look at modern Turkey, it has 360 ° problems: in Egypt;

now she participates in the Libyan events ("ethnic brothers" there or someone else - the question is already another);

Turkey talks about the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, but at the same time crossed the border of Iraq;

talks about the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, but at the same time crossed the border of Syria;

tries to be actively present in Lebanon, in the Persian Gulf;

she has a big problem now in the Eastern Mediterranean.

And now - in the Caucasus!

360 °!

This is the first thing.

Second, they were talking about the PKK fighters - nonsense!

Thirdly, they talked about pipelines from Baku through Tbilisi to Ceyhan, oil and gas pipelines.

Why am I talking about this too?

Because the motives were voiced such that the Armenians will hit them, and we will protect them.

Excuse me, where is the logic?

If the Armenians had to hit the pipelines, the time for that was 20 years ago.

20 years ago, when the pipeline began to be pulled, a couple of shelling attacks would have stopped construction.

The Armenians did not do that.

And they haven't done it for over 20 years.

No shelling, not a single bullet was fired.

Armenians allowed - allowed!

- Azerbaijan to build pipelines in order to sell its oil and gas (and not only its own, but also from other countries of the Caspian region, including from Central Asia), receive billions of dollars and purchase weapons for these billions of dollars, and these weapons are now used against Nagorno-Karabakh.

This brings us to the conclusion: billions of dollars ...

- So it's about money and Turkish support?

- With the help of money and Turkish support, it is possible to overcome any moderate air defense system that Nagorno-Karabakh had.

You ask: "Why is this so?"

Because Nagorno-Karabakh has no oil.

Why is it so?

Because the Armenians were respectable citizens of this planet and did not fire on the pipeline to prevent the Azerbaijanis from making money.

- What are the ultimate goals of your government, the government of Armenia?

- Our ultimate goal is to end the war, return to the negotiating table and finally achieve movement in the right direction.

And only one direction is correct ...

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- This: the issue of the final status of Nagorno-Karabakh, the settlement of the situation with Nagorno-Karabakh, can be resolved only through normal human negotiations.

The negotiation process involves not only finding the right formula and determining the final status.

It is also very important that people in the course of negotiations gradually, overcoming difficulties and sometimes discontent, come to trust.

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- It is too early to start discussing what will happen to us next, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, until we can solve the problems of today.

And now the pressing problem is a ceasefire.

Everything will be determined by itself in the process.

If now I state my vision, and the other side - theirs, it turns out that our desires differ significantly.

The negotiation process is important precisely in order to reduce our positions to something in common.

Over the past 20 years, during which we have negotiated, we have managed to resolve many differences, believe me.

There were fundamental differences that remained unresolved, and they require political courage and determination.

In conflicts of this magnitude, there are so many details that seem insignificant, but they also need to be negotiated.

It was done, but now everything is destroyed.

But there is no other way, you need to start negotiating everything again.

This is very important for us, as I have already told you.

The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic and its people see no other solution than the option under which the Armenians could live freely and with dignity in their native land.

For all Armenians around the world, both in our country and in the Diaspora, it is important to avoid the threat of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

But how can I tell what the result will be?

I will refrain from making predictions and speculations, because it will look more like speculation than expressing hopes or seeing prospects.

Today I am talking about the time to end the war.

Look at the city of Stepanakert - at least from a drone.

It looks like a city after World War II.

- That's what I asked you about.

- How can this happen?

Every day people in this city wake up and go to the bomb shelters.

They lovingly rebuilt their city after the first war.

It is a truly beautiful city that has now been completely destroyed.

Let me give you an example.

In Shushi there is the Cathedral of the Holy Christ the All-Savior.

This is a beautiful church that was built in the 19th century.

Around the same time, a mosque was built in Shushi, because there was an Azerbaijani national minority in the city.

After the first war, both buildings were destroyed.

The NKR government with the financial support of Armenians living abroad (I will not name names), non-Armenians, friends, some of whom were not Christians at all, but were Muslims ... The Cathedral of Holy Christ the All-Savior was restored.

Several years later, the mosque was also restored.

This is what the Armenian approach is about.

What happened at the beginning of the current conflict?

Azerbaijanis attacked the church.

To the monastery.

And you know who was inside.

Women and children.

Unarmed.

As well as journalists, including Russian ones.

They were being shot at.

They were wounded.

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- The humanitarian issue, of course, consists of many levels.

In particular, it implies a suspension of fire on the front line so that international organizations, including humanitarian ones (such as the Red Cross), have the opportunity to take out the wounded, take the bodies of those killed, and so on ... It also includes an assessment of the situation as a whole, because that many have lost relatives, friends ... We really have a lot of refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh.

As the president of the country, I am proud that from the very first day of the war, the people demonstrated unity.

And an example of this is how people organized themselves in order to provide assistance to refugees from Artsakh and Nagorno-Karabakh.

Even before the government, the Ministry of Social Affairs, the Ministry of Health began to stir, volunteers - thousands of volunteers - began to take care of refugees.

- Do you have fresh data or at least rough estimates?

- The number is large.

Very large - we are talking about many thousands of people.

- Let's talk about the role of Russia ... On the one hand, it helps to organize peace negotiations.

But on the other hand, it is also an ally of Armenia.

Has Russia made enough efforts?

“For myself, I have formulated a number of important principles regarding Russia's policy in the Caucasus.

One of them was recently recalled by President Putin.

It seems like October 7th.

He clearly stated that Russia has relations with Armenia, there are signed agreements on a political plan, a military one ... And Armenia is also a member of the CSTO.

And President Putin made it clear that Russia will abide by all agreements.

This is a perfectly clear signal and expression of one of these principles.

I think this is important for Russia and Russian policy in the Caucasus.

And I welcome this approach because it shows that Russia is a reliable partner.

The second point is that Russia has good relations with Azerbaijan as well.

That is, she has very good relations with Azerbaijan and very good relations with Armenia.

There is a balance and both sides can trust a mediator like Russia.

This is a very important concept.

The point is not only that the parties should trust the mediator in the negotiations, but the mediator himself - the Russian Federation - assumes a huge responsibility.

It is not simple.

Responsibility and trust are what can push the parties to negotiate.

I hope that the truce will still be observed and on its basis we will be able to move on.

Russia plays a key role here.

Of course, the existence of a suitable platform - the OSCE Minsk Group and three co-chairs - is also important.

Three presidents - Donald Trump, Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Putin - have turned to the parties to the conflict.

I understand that the American leader is now extremely busy due to the upcoming elections.

French President Emmanuel Macron represents Europe, and he is very deeply involved in the situation, and I cannot but thank him for that.

Nevertheless, the role of Russia is special.

- You have probably heard a completely different assessment of events from the lips of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

He accused the OSCE Minsk Group, which has been engaged in the Karabakh settlement for several decades, of negligence and inaction.

What can you say about this?

And after all, Erdogan criticized the Minsk Group immediately after the joint statement of Trump, Macron and Putin.

- Firstly, such statements by Erdogan show a deep misunderstanding of the essence of a peaceful settlement.

In addition, this testifies to a certain attitude towards the mechanisms for solving international problems.

Probably, this also shows that Turkey has completely different goals in the region, including in the territory of Azerbaijan.

They are not interested in the settlement of the Karabakh problem, they have their own agenda.

As I said, according to some analysts, Turkey's real goal is not only Nagorno-Karabakh.

Ankara not only wants to teach the Armenians a lesson, to remind that it will never recognize the genocide, but, perhaps, seeks to strengthen its positions in Azerbaijan.

- Mr. President, what makes you consider the participation of the Syrian mercenaries in the conflict on the side of Azerbaijan a proven fact?

You also mentioned the Kurdistan Workers' Party fighters.

Do you rule out the possibility of the presence of Kurdish forces in the conflict zone?

- Definitely.

This is complete nonsense.

You are a journalist, I ask you: if you find at least one Kurd there, please call me.

Traces of at least one Kurdish fighter.

Yes, of course, in Armenia and in Nagorno-Karabakh there are citizens - ethnic Kurds, mostly Yezidis.

That is, they are ethnically Kurds, but they have their own religion.

Here's what is important to note: yes, we are often asked such questions at the suggestion of Turkey.

But the real essence of such questions is as follows: they call into question the very ability of Armenians to defend their country on their own.

Allegedly, the Armenians definitely need someone's support.

Many journalists asked me what I think about this, whether Russia will come to Armenia's aid.

I mean, in Nagorno-Karabakh.

Will Iran come to help or some other third country?

And we are trying to convey to everyone the following idea: we do not want anyone to interfere in this situation.

We don't want new members added or complications.

And we wish only one thing - to take Turkey out of the game.

If Turkey leaves the game, I assure you that the truce will be in effect and will last for a very long time.

As soon as Azerbaijan started a war using shelling and the most modern technology that they buy all over the world (but the supply of the most advanced weapons to Azerbaijan is a different story), they should expect retribution from the people of Nagorno-Karabakh and struggle.

They have a very strong incentive: they are fighting for their lives.

Not for a piece of land, but for your life, for your homeland and dignity.

- With such support of Azerbaijan from Turkey (both financial and military) why would Azerbaijan or Turkey then attract Islamic militants from Syria?

- Ask them.

I dont know.

- But are you sure that they are there?

- Not only me.

This was also reported by Mr. Naryshkin, the head of Russian foreign intelligence.

And he is not alone - intelligence leaders of other countries have spoken about this.

I'm not just sure.

There is so much evidence.

I'm not going to prove it to you now, it has already been proven.

Why?

I do not know.

Ask Mr Aliyev or Erdogan why they brought these people there.

- Is there now a chance to attract a peacekeeping mission and send peacekeepers to this region?

Who could play such a role?

- As president, I am ready to consider any options.

It is unlikely that there can be any restrictions.

But peacekeepers will be able to participate in such a mission only with the mutual consent of the parties.

Peacekeepers cannot defend one side - then they are no longer peacekeepers.

- But do you agree with this idea?

- It depends on the course of the peace negotiations.

Any proposals have a right to exist if an armistice comes and both sides return to the negotiating table.

Then you can discuss anything.

A contingent of peacekeepers, mandates, all sorts of problems, deadlines - that's it!

And it's too early even for me to say, they say, this is acceptable, but this is not.

Why?

I'll give you another compelling example.

For many years, starting from the day when Nagorno-Karabakh declared its independence ... Then it was still part of the Soviet Union, and the Supreme Soviet of the Armenian SSR voted to recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent state or even part of Armenia.

But then the leaders of Armenia showed wisdom and slowed down this process.

Why?

It would seem that everything is simple.

They are your people.

Not ethnic brothers, as President Erdogan says, but naturally brothers!

So why hasn't Armenia recognized them all these years?

For one simple reason.

Because we in Armenia understand that by recognizing them, we will only complicate the process of achieving peace.

For many years, Armenia did not recognize them so that peace negotiations could be crowned with success and to ensure a final settlement of the issue of the status of Nagorno-Karabakh through negotiations.

And if they would lead to the recognition of the independent status of Nagorno-Karabakh, then Armenia would also recognize it.

And by not recognizing the independence of Nagorno-Karabakh or not recognizing it as a part of Armenia, we thereby leave an opportunity for negotiations.

It is very important.

Of course, if the war continues now and the negotiations have to be forgotten, Armenia will have nothing left but to recognize and support its brothers.

But there is still hope that negotiations will be able to resume.

It is hoped that a ceasefire will be established.

Therefore, Armenia remains true to its position today.

And thus we return to your question about this and this, about the future ... It is too early to talk about this!

Let's give the parties a chance to end hostilities and return to the negotiating table.

And determine their parameters.

Let's not complicate things.

- Mr. President, I understand that the occasion is very regrettable and tragic ... But based on what you told me, do you think that Russia and Armenia have come closer against the background of the recent aggravation?

- I would say that our closeness cannot be judged at the level of today's politics, at the level of statements, positions or decisions of certain groups, certain parties.

I believe that our relations were, remain and - I am sure - will remain very deep, much deeper in their essence than the political events that are visible on the surface.

After all, in order to answer this question, I need to use again the word that sounds like a leitmotif between us today - trust.

And this is not just trust in the unknown, it is trust that has been developed over several centuries.

- Mr. Sargsyan, thank you very much for your trust.

Let's strengthen it further.

And thank you for clarifying so many difficult points for us.

- And thank you very much.

It was nice talking to you, Ilya.

Watch the interview with Armen Sargsyan on the RTD website.