“Consciousness helped me to have a big country”: Vyshinsky - on the persecution, release and freedom of speech in Ukraine

- You spent more than 15 months in custody. What has become your hardest challenge?

- The most difficult thing in the beginning was life. Because it is, of course, a shock when a person comes to prison. In my hands were only a small cosmetic bag, toothbrush, paste. And the second most difficult thing is to survive the shock of what is happening to me. Because I understood that there is nothing connected with the law. I understood that this was an absolutely political story, invented by Poroshenko and his entourage. And I understood that under the law I have no way to protect myself. And then you are simply powerless, because it is a huge machine that puts pressure on you. Awareness of these two things: purely everyday trifles and the crushing thought that, in the legal field, all this is not solved. Courts make and stamp decisions.

- What helped keep afloat?

“It helped me to realize that people were following me, a big country.” That these people and the country are definitely doing everything to get me out of there. I know what these people are, these were my colleagues, these were my friends. I knew who represented the big country, I understood that this was a huge effort by the Foreign Ministry.

I understood that this is a question that Putin and Merkel are discussing. That is, I understood that this was the head of the country, discussing with the head of another country a question concerning me, and I understood that this was a conversation between countries, not between politicians, not between lawyers or anyone else. That my fate is a matter of great political relations, since the leaders of the two countries are discussing this.

“But you were sitting in four walls, and perhaps you even lost your awareness of reality.”

- Yes, I was sitting. But I understood that they were fighting for me. And for me it was very important, it supported me in many ways. I understood that this would greatly support me further.

- You, I see, very emotionally perceived this question.

- You see, it is not easy to remember, it is not easy to return there. And indeed the last three days - such a solid emotional swing. Because I meet with relatives, close people, with people who have made a huge amount of effort in order to free me. Let's just say that in prison there was no such emotional stress. Although I understand that now it’s much more pleasant for me to transfer these loads than if I transferred them in prison.

- Yes, now you probably have a completely different view of that experience. I have already heard a lot about what you said about your business, about your process, that this does not correspond with legal norms. Nevertheless, this could have been avoided? Or was it a planned action and you could not do anything?

- No, I could only avoid this in one way - if I were not in Ukraine by the time they came to arrest me on the morning of May 15. Then I could somehow avoid it. And so, firstly, I did not do anything to get me arrested. I was not going to avoid anything, because I was firmly convinced, I already said this, that the profession protects me. I work according to canons, by standards. Since I strictly comply with all the rules that are prescribed to a journalist, it means that there is nothing for me to detain, condemn, deport, and so on.

It turned out that there was something, because it was a matter of a great political history, which was invented by Poroshenko and his administration, and the right to this had nothing to do. Accordingly, you will not be safe from this. What did they have in their heads there, in the administration of President Poroshenko, at that moment? I dont know. But they needed some kind of victory from their nose. The operation "Exchange" invented by them - it would have looked like a victory. But I refused to take part in this. And, probably, in some sense, in this sense, they lost.

- Do not regret it?

- Of course I do not regret it. I just did all this already. I do not comprehend this. I did what I did. I did not buy myself the freedom at the price that I was offered. Am I right or wrong in this situation? Someone, probably, will consider it is wrong, because he could have been released earlier. On the other hand, the price was too high. I would take the blame for what I did not commit. I would betray those who trusted me, who believed in me. On such simple scales, it does not weigh.

- Definitely. You talked about the administration of Poroshenko, now another administration in Kiev. How do you rate her actions? You have come out largely thanks to these changes.

- Of course. Once again, it would be foolish to deny that all this is a kind of political process. Everything related to my release. It began then, literally from the very first statements, including by the press service of the President of the Russian Federation Putin, that it was impermissible to arrest a journalist who was carrying out his professional duty. Then Putin’s statement on the Direct Line that he also believes that it’s outrageous when a person is arrested for performing professional duties. And of course, it’s foolish to deny today that this political process ended with my release. And it is clear that it ended like this because the administration has changed. Because I understood: how much Poroshenko will be in power - so much I will sit.

- I understand that we are not politicians, we are journalists. Nevertheless, the logical question is: is this the beginning of some, as you said, tectonic shift?

- I dont know.

“Or is it too early to rejoice?”

- No I dont know. Because I understand that they need to take other steps further. Need to free other people. It is necessary to admit those mistakes and those crimes that Poroshenko committed. And I'm sure that there is something to recognize. Recognize in the sense that give this some kind of legal assessment. Not that Zelensky should go out there and sprinkle ashes on his head, no. This should be done by the state, which today has a new leadership.

There are many steps ahead that require both political will and political courage from the current administration and from Zelensky personally. I hope he has this courage. That what he declared before the election, he is going to do. What is connected with me, with another 30-odd people who were at large. We need to make it clear that this is not a one-time public relations campaign, because it was necessary to get Ukrainian troops who flew to Kiev. And what is goodwill, and this is a plan for further normalization of relations between the two countries, between two peoples that have come from the same root. That is my deep conviction.

- You have tremendous experience in Ukraine, and you can dynamically trace the situation with freedom of speech there.

- I can’t evaluate it, because over the past year I have been monitoring freedom of speech from a very specific place. I just perfectly understand that a shot from a grenade launcher on a TV channel is definitely not a manifestation of freedom of speech. This is definitely a serious problem that makes you think. I understand perfectly well that the detention, including under house arrest, of my colleague Vasya Muravitsky, who was arrested about six months earlier than me, and that the trial in his case is not so shaky or swiftly conducted under the same article 111 is also not in “plus” to the description of freedom of speech in Ukraine. Therefore, there are a lot of problems. I repeat once again: the political courage of the new administration, the new team, is needed in order to solve these problems. In order to recognize their existence, first of all, and then solve them.

- You left another person?

“And anyone who goes out of prison leaves another person.” It is clear that if he spent there not two, three days, not a finite number of days within two or three weeks, but rather serious time, you cannot get out of there by the same person who entered there. Because you thought about something all this time, you met and talked with other people. You just went through a new experience. And he, of course, will change the new experience. Someone more, someone less. But no one else can get out of prison. Therefore, of course, I am different.

• RIA News

“Have you lost faith in something that you firmly believed in before?” In some principles journalistic, human?

- No, I did not lose faith. I have some kind of disappointment. This is a disappointment, first of all, in some specific people, about whom I had a better opinion. That's all. Faith is not. It's too serious to spend a year in prison and lose faith. Then it means the prison was supposed to destroy you to the ground. And I definitely don’t feel like that. Therefore, no. Disappointment, pity for those who invented it all. Because it was such a step, from impotence, as it seems to me. I really wanted for a second term that we went to this story.

Spoiled the reputation of the country. Earned a bunch of problems. I speak, not only with me, with other arrested journalists, with my colleagues. With the same Vasya Muravitsky, with Vasilenko and Danilts. With many, many, many, many. And so badly spoiled the image of Ukraine, from my point of view, in the world, that below is just a kind of baseboard. And, I say again, in this sense I do not envy Zelensky’s office, because he will have to disentangle it, he will have to do something about it. If there will be political will for this.

- Are you worried about Ukraine?

- It’s impossible not to worry. You see, I was born and raised in Ukraine. Then it was part of the Soviet Union. Then she became an independent state. That is, I have lived there for almost half my life. Now I am 52 years old, which means that I lived 27 years in independent Ukraine, and 25 I lived in Ukraine, which was part of the Soviet Union. But still, I lived in Ukraine, if it is correct, in Russian, I lived in Ukraine, this is my country. This is my homeland. Although I understand that my Fatherland is Russia. Because the Fatherland fought for me. That is, this is some kind of second part of me. And I can’t help but worry about Ukraine, of course. Therefore, I say what I say.

- I really liked how you made an analysis of the contingent that descended from the ladder of the Ukrainian plane. If we had women, old people, children, and there were ...

- There were no children.

- Well, conditionally.

- Of this triad were women, the elderly. And military men of military age descended from the Ukrainian ramp.

- What does it mean?

- Listen, a military man is a person who realizes what he is doing, where he is going, what he is doing. Aware of all the risks. But the women and the elderly who ended up in prison - it seems to me that this is humiliating for the country.

You see, next to me in the Kherson pre-trial detention center was a girl in her sixth month of pregnancy, who participated in the organization of the referendum. Crimean, 2014. She was imprisoned for this. I looked at it - somehow it’s not like a man, you see, it’s a disgrace to the country. People made their choice, this choice was like that, and you put them in jail for that.

And most importantly, you hit the weak. A pregnant woman, in her sixth month ... It's ugly, very ugly.

- I understand that you have a large choice, but what was the most pleasant thing that you did at large?

- Yes, everything was nice. It’s just released - when you don’t look back at your body movements, when you do what you want, go where you want, talk, who you want, eat what you want, drink what you want ... This is freedom, and that’s it it is said. It consists of small things, of some such small and large things. But this is freedom. This freedom is after prison, of course, it is perceived in a completely different way than before prison. It is a taste of life.