“I don't really like it, but why is it OK for a female cleaner in a men's bath / men's toilet?” July 1, 19:48

"Discrimination against women is often a problem, but there is discrimination against men. Female employees enter the men's bath and men's toilet. The opposite is not allowed, why is this allowed? This is a post sent by a high school

boy

to NHK.

While thinking "certainly ...", I (reporter), a woman, did not know how much the male employee was cleaning the men's bath, so I decided to investigate.

Then I saw interesting data and a wave of change.

(Social Department reporter Chieko Katsumata)

Even if I was told "Don't worry because I'm a man" ...

The person who posted to NHK's information service "News Post" was a male student in the third year of high school in Tochigi prefecture.

Following the content introduced at the beginning, it was written as follows.

"I went to a public bath with my friend on the way home from club activities. At that time, a female employee crossed in front of me when I was taking off my clothes. A female employee came from the side and started to refill the shampoo that was in my place. It was really embarrassing. Imagine this from the opposite standpoint. The same is true for men's toilets. There is a woman behind when a man is doing something in the toilet. Why do men have to put up with it? "

When I contacted the boys immediately, it was said that female employees often came into the men's toilets and men's baths for a long time, but they started to worry about it from around junior high school.

He experienced it in the toilets and public baths at the station and asked for improvements, but he said that he was not reviewed.

Male student

"I was really embarrassed. I made a complaint but nothing changed. It may be because there is a tendency in Japan that" I'm a man so don't worry about it ", but male users feel uncomfortable. I think that's a problem in itself. "

“Female staff cleans men's bath” at 44% of facilities

I myself am a woman, so I don't know from the skin, but how often do female employees actually clean the men's bath?

As I proceeded with the interview to see if I could figure it out somewhere, the "Hot Bath Promotion Association", which makes super public baths nationwide, took a questionnaire survey in 2019.

According to this, of the 118 facilities that responded, female employees answered that they are cleaning the men's bath at 52 facilities, which is 44%.

Male bathroom cleaning staff 118 Facility answers

Male 56% (66 facilities)

Female 44% (52 facilities)

Of course, even facilities that answered female employees are responding when male employees are available.

However, if a female employee cleans a public bath with a probability of nearly half, the person who cares may not be able to take a bath calmly.

On the other hand, during the interview, a female employee in her 70s who works for a public bath said, "I was relieved when a man started cleaning the men's bath because even my grandmother was nervous about cleaning the bath of the opposite sex. Was also heard.

It seems that some people are burdened by the cleaning side.

The voice of "Even men are embarrassed" that began to gather

Under these circumstances, it is said that the Hot Bath Promotion Association has received opinions from male users that female employees should not clean the men's bath.

Director of the Hot Bath Promotion Association

"Recently, I often receive emails from the association asking me to do something embarrassing. Specifically," I was embarrassed when a woman entered the men's bath "or" Is it okay because I am a man? " Some of my wives who came to the bath with my husband from a foreign country said, "If my husband was in the bath, a woman would come in and I was surprised." Of course, even men of the opposite sex. I feel that there are people who don't want to be seen by

The association, which has felt a change in user awareness, also conducted a questionnaire survey of male users.

Cleaning of men's dressing room / bathroom (surveyed by 1348 men)

▼ 50% (674 people) who have never bothered men and women

▼ 20% (270 people) for both men and women

▼ 25% if possible by male employees 337)

▼ 5% (67 people) must be conducted by male employees In

the questionnaire to more than 1,300 male users, half of the respondents said they had never cared about it, and 20% said it didn't matter. , "If possible, do it with male employees" and "Make sure to do it with male employees" account for 30%, and one in three male users wants them to be cleaned by the same sex. I understand.

So that men can raise their voices with the times

We spoke with Mori Ryu, a lawyer who is familiar with the issue of gender discrimination and wants to restrict female employees from entering the men's bath.

Attorney Moritate

"I feel that 30% of men are potentially embarrassed. When it comes to gender issues, it is necessary to improve the situation of women, such as" the side where women are discriminated against. " I think it was often said in the direction of ", but as women have become easier to raise their voices, it has not become easier for men to raise their voices for the things they have put up with and the discomfort they have had. Is not it"

Receiving the voices of customers ... Super public baths that have begun to change

Under these circumstances, changes are emerging in the industry.

For 16 years since the opening of the Super Sento in Saitama Prefecture, cleaning has been done by female employees, and both men's and women's baths have been cleaned by women.

However, it is said that it has been improving for two years in response to the voices of customers.

The store manager, Kazuo Igarashi, told me the story.

Manager Kazuo Igarashi

"Male customers in their twenties and thirties have commented that cleaning by women is not possible. Some people have asked me many times, and they complain to that extent. I felt that it was the inside out of my desire to come again because I liked our hot water. I thought I had to manage it as it was. "

That's where we reassigned our employees.

Due to the influence of the corona, the sand steam bath was abolished, so we decided to have five male employees who were sanding clean the men's bath.

As a result, male employees now clean the men's bath in 80% of all business hours.

On weekdays, they start cleaning once an hour, cleaning the washbasin and floor, cleaning up the area around the faucet, and replacing the sauna mat.

If this is Saturday and Sunday, it will enter once every 30 minutes.

It is reviewed so that all Saturdays and Sundays are done by men, and it seems that men are always included on weekdays, but even so, the manpower is thin from 3:00 pm to 6:00 pm, and 20% of business hours are still handled by women. It's called.

Therefore, as an immediate response, we have set up a notice at the entrance so that those who are reluctant to clean female employees will be given as much consideration as possible so that they can apply for reception in advance.

"For hygiene management, female staff also go in and out of the men's bathhouse. For customers who do not want it, we will consider going in and out as much as possible, so please inform the receptionist of the usage time in advance."

Securing both male and female employees Difficulty due to labor costs

On the other hand, it is not easy to secure more male staff.

It is said that if a new employee is hired during a time when there are not enough men, the annual labor cost will be 1.8 million to 2 million yen. It is said that it is not a fixed cost that can be easily increased because it is putting pressure on management.

Manager Kazuo Igarashi

"In the first place, this business does not make a profit of 10% of sales. In addition to the fact that customers have not returned until before Corona, the use of banquets etc. has also stopped. Materials are also soaring. I'm trying my best not to run in the red, and I'm annoyed because I can't increase the number of staff any more. "

How to clean the men's toilet?

Changes due to requests from foreigners

So what about cleaning the "men's toilet"?

We talked to a building maintenance company headquartered in Minato Ward about cleaning a building, which is said to be 70% female employees.

Mr. Yoichi Asai, a building maintenance company

"Many foreign users said that female employees were scared when they came to the men's toilet for cleaning."

At this company, it was expected that many foreigners would come at the Tokyo Olympics, so men decided to clean the toilets in the building where many foreigners want to be cleaned by male employees.

Secured 5 new male employees.

In an industry with chronic labor shortages, we can expand our business further by increasing the number of male employees.

He suggested to the management companies of other buildings that there might be other buildings that require male employees to clean the male toilets, but he said that the return was an unexpected word.

Mr. Yoichi Asai, a building maintenance company

"If I thought that I would be pleased with it, I was sometimes told that I would like a woman to do it because it will clean it cleanly." Male employees do the same. It's actually beautiful because it's being trained, but the problem with the image is big. The management company and the owner understand more that there is a request from people who actually use the toilet that "men are good". I hope you can ... "

Is that natural?

"Now" seen from the men's bath and men's toilet

This time, when I proceeded with the interview triggered by the post of a high school boy sent to NHK, in addition to the problem of securing employees and issues such as labor costs, the trend of "don't worry about being a man" and "cleaning" It has become clear that preconceptions such as "Women are ..." are becoming a wall.

I felt that it was necessary for both users and workers to accept these voices and change their minds on how to feel comfortable and relieved.

NHK's information service "News Post" is waiting for information from everyone about discomfort and familiar problems that are "natural".

News post

Your post will trigger investigative journalism

Chieko Katsumata , a

reporter from the Social Affairs Department , joined the station in

2010.

After working at the Yamaguchi station and Sendai station, she

covers a wide range of issues regarding children and education.

When she was at the Yamaguchi station, she lived in a hot spring area, and on the day after her stay, she always healed her tiredness at the hot springs.