"In Kabul, nothing could have prevented me from doing my reports"

• In mid-August, Afghanistan fell into the hands of the Taliban.

• Liseron Boudoul, a major reporter for TF1, arrived with his cameraman in Kabul a week after this takeover.

• Reactivity, risks, uncertainties… The journalist answered questions from 

  20 Minutes

   when she returned from the report.

Account for the chaos and uncertainty in a country that is gradually closing in on itself. A problem that Liseron Boudoul knows very well, journalist for nearly twenty years for TF1 and war correspondent for a decade. His reports in Iraq and Syria were notably honored with the Grand Reporter Prize in 2018, during the Laurels ceremony for radio and television.

Most recently, she was one of the first French journalists to enter Kabul after the Taliban seized power in Afghanistan last August.

For nearly three weeks, her cameraman Romain Reverdy and she went in search of images and testimonies, to meet the Afghan population plunged into fear, panic and expectation.

Returned a few days ago to report, Liseron Boudoul gave an interview to

20 Minutes

.

When did you decide to go to Kabul?

It didn't really turn out like a classic mission. On August 15, Kabul fell. On the morning of the 16th - like all newsrooms in the world, I think - we say to ourselves: "How do we do it?" What are we doing ? All the normal airlines were interrupted, the borders closed… I have the idea of ​​going to Qatar because, there, the Taliban were still negotiating with the Americans on the departure of the troops. I go the next day and for four days I try to get an interview with a leader. Thanks to contacts, I meet him and then I ask for his help to go to Kabul. He told me that the Taliban had changed, that they wanted to open up to the world, a speech with surely a lot of communication and a strategy behind it, but there was still a new and interesting message to decipher.So I asked him to help me get there to see if there really was any change. He accepted. With the agreement of the Qataris, we were able to take a military plane with some other international media which were in Doha to follow the negotiations. We met in Kabul on a Sunday afternoon, exactly one week after the capture of the city.

How was your arrival?

It wasn't easy to get out of the airport, it took us six or seven hours. The Americans blocked us on the tarmac, we couldn't even send the little reports that we had shot immediately upon arriving. There were military planes from all over the world, we saw groups of hundreds of Afghans, families with children, passing by and getting on planes. On the other side we could hear gunshots in the air, we could feel very well that there were regroupings… This airport had become an incredible place of tensions, emotions and events. We managed to get out with the help of a few contacts and ended up in a hotel in the heart of Kabul. The Taliban controlled it, they were on the outside and inside.Sometimes we even had breakfast with the Taliban and their slung Kalashnikovs, who lined up like us for an omelet or porridge… It had a completely unreal side to it. We could feel the tension rising, so much so that I decided to cover my legs, I had my slim jeans and they had made me some remarks in the street, I understood that my scarf was not enough anymore. My cameraman bought a qamis, an afghan tunic and me an abaya. We continued our reporting like that, with a local car, not at all NGO or journalist type. No one noticed us when we left our hotel.so much so that I decided to cover my legs, I had my skinny jeans and they had made me some remarks in the street, I understood that my scarf was not enough anymore. My cameraman bought a qamis, an afghan tunic and me an abaya. We continued our reporting like that, with a local car, not at all NGO or journalist type. No one noticed us when we left our hotel.so much so that I decided to cover my legs, I had my skinny jeans and they had made me some remarks in the street, I understood that my scarf was not enough anymore. My cameraman bought a qamis, an afghan tunic and me an abaya. We continued our reporting like that, with a local car, not at all NGO or journalist type. No one noticed us when we left our hotel.

In a podcast for France Culture several months ago, Florence Aubenas noted a change in the outlook on war reporters, explaining that it was increasingly dangerous to venture into conflict zones. Do you have the same feeling?

Yes, but Kabul is not really a war zone, it is a bit special. There is gunfire at night, we feel it's very tense, but it's not a war between two groups. When you arrive, life has a semblance of normal life, and I mean a semblance: there are still pick-ups on which armed Taliban groups scrutinize the slightest movement, do not hesitate to whip people in. the street, to shoot in the air… It's not a war zone but we say to ourselves that we could very well be the target of a kidnapping. Taliban groups belong to more or less warlike and religious movements and do not necessarily display the same spirit of openness as the leaders I met in Doha. Before, NGOs and journalists were a bit spotted as protected persons,it was enough to put "Press" on his bulletproof vest or on his helmet and it was like a latent protection. The journalist was there to do something other than war. Now, with wars changing modes of operation - there are terrorist groups, militiamen, spies in the streets… - he can also be considered a target. An interesting target because if we kidnap him we can negotiate his release with a state or other groups ... Journalists, in certain areas, are dangerous for certain states because they are going to tell what is happening. There are no longer just wars on the ground but also wars of communication and we are direct players. The danger is frequent and at different levels.The journalist was there to do something other than war. Now, with wars changing modes of operation - there are terrorist groups, militiamen, spies in the streets… - he can also be considered a target. An interesting target because if we kidnap him we can negotiate his release with a state or other groups ... Journalists, in certain areas, are dangerous for certain states because they are going to tell what is happening. There are no longer just wars on the ground but also wars of communication and we are direct players. The danger is frequent and at different levels.The journalist was there to do something other than war. Now, with wars changing modes of operation - there are terrorist groups, militiamen, spies in the streets… - he can also be considered a target. An interesting target because if we kidnap him we can negotiate his release with a state or other groups ... Journalists, in certain areas, are dangerous for certain states because they are going to tell what is happening. There are no longer just wars on the ground but also wars of communication and we are direct players. The danger is frequent and at different levels.it can also be seen as a target. An interesting target because if we kidnap him we can negotiate his release with a state or other groups ... Journalists, in certain areas, are dangerous for certain states because they are going to tell what is happening. There are no longer just wars on the ground but also wars of communication and we are direct players. The danger is frequent and at different levels.it can also be seen as a target. An interesting target because if we kidnap him we can negotiate his release with a state or other groups ... Journalists, in certain areas, are dangerous for certain states because they are going to tell what is happening. There are no longer just wars on the ground but also wars of communication and we are direct players. The danger is frequent and at different levels.The danger is frequent and at different levels.The danger is frequent and at different levels.

You were explaining that there was a dialogue between you and the Taliban, did you feel any tension in relation to your status as a journalist?

Not at first.

Having discussed with this Taliban leader, I felt that they had a desire for communication, with a clear discourse of "We have changed", which was not necessarily reflected in the actions afterwards.

I jumped on that and told them they had better show what they were doing there.

I also had some contact with them before arriving and that helped in that on the street I knew that if I had a problem I had some means to be able to get out of a situation. complicated or dangerous.

Afterwards, it's always the same, it's the eye of the reporter, the experience, the intuition… All that plays out, it's a set of things.

And how were your relations with the Afghan people when you arrived?

It was a bit complicated to get answers in the streets because they were already in that atmosphere of haunting fear that you could feel all over the city. Anyone who couldn't leave or get to the airport - it was extremely complicated and dangerous - hid in their homes. The Taliban controlled the city, but it was obvious that they themselves did not quite know how to do it. There were only these men in pick-ups who came down from the mountain and who for some discovered the city, the ice creams in the pastry shops, the self-stampers ... Those who had fought for eighteen years had never entered a capital nor experienced the life that goes with it. When I left for a day outside of Kabul,there I felt that it was the first time they saw a woman journalist appear in the streets of their small town. They were a little surprised and there was a fear among some of them of speaking to me, for fear of having problems with the Taliban. Others had a lot of courage and spoke to me. They explained to me that women could no longer leave their homes, that little girls could no longer go to school, that they had to go to the mosque otherwise they risked lashes and punishments. in public, as with the Taliban twenty years ago. I felt a difference between Kabul, where we could still discuss and where there was some hesitation, and the province where we already felt that Islamic law was indeed applied.They were a little surprised and there was a fear among some of them of speaking to me, for fear of having problems with the Taliban. Others had a lot of courage and spoke to me. They explained to me that women could no longer leave their homes, that little girls could no longer go to school, that they had to go to the mosque otherwise they risked lashes and punishments. in public, as with the Taliban twenty years ago. I felt a difference between Kabul, where we could still discuss and where there was some hesitation, and the province where we already felt that Islamic law was indeed applied.They were a little surprised and there was a fear among some of them of speaking to me, for fear of having problems with the Taliban. Others had a lot of courage and spoke to me. They explained to me that women could no longer leave their homes, that little girls could no longer go to school, that they had to go to the mosque otherwise they risked lashes and punishments. in public, as with the Taliban twenty years ago. I felt a difference between Kabul, where we could still discuss and where there was some hesitation, and the province where we already felt that Islamic law was indeed applied.They explained to me that women could no longer leave their homes, that little girls could no longer go to school, that they had to go to the mosque otherwise they risked lashes and punishments. in public, as with the Taliban twenty years ago. I felt a difference between Kabul, where we could still discuss and where there was some hesitation, and the province where we already felt that Islamic law was indeed applied.They explained to me that women could no longer leave their homes, that little girls could no longer go to school, that they had to go to the mosque otherwise they risked lashes and punishments. in public, as with the Taliban twenty years ago. I felt a difference between Kabul, where we could still discuss and where there was some hesitation, and the province where we already felt that Islamic law was indeed applied.and the province where we already felt that Islamic law was indeed applied.and the province where we already felt that Islamic law was indeed applied.

How to do your job as a journalist in a country where censorship and threats reign?

Censorship, I didn't feel it. Certainly to get out of Kabul you had to have an authorization and a document to show to pass the checkpoints ... During this visit to this province, two Taliban escorted me a bit in another car, but I was still able to get out and interview people. people. It only lasted an hour but I had time to talk to people, anyway that was enough to describe the atmosphere. Reporting is about telling what people tell us, what they describe to us, but also what our eyes see. I think it gave a little more sensory side to the report and I noticed that I had a lot of messages, that they had provoked a lot of reactions and emotions. Maybe also because I was the only woman for ten days there.

You co-wrote the book “They're risking their lives” on women war reporters. Is being a woman an additional difficulty in carrying out this profession which is already at risk?

I am a journalist first and foremost. I am a woman too, maybe I have a particular approach in certain contexts, maybe an emotion and a feminine intuition that I do not hide. When I go on a mission, I don't tell myself that I am becoming a man. I remain myself, with my flaws and my energy too, and I do my job as I see fit. Some will say, “But still, the Taliban don't like women…” I didn't go telling myself that since they didn't like women, I wasn't going to talk to them. I went to talk to them because I am a journalist! It is also part of this job to arrive with a certain openness and tell ourselves that we have to do our job no matter what.

So you didn't have the impression of being in a situation a little more risky than a man, because of being a woman?

No, I never had that impression. I wanted to go to Kabul, I would have done everything for. Once I was there I wanted to do my reporting and nothing could have stopped me. Whether I was a woman or not I didn't care, I was adjusting. A Taliban refused to speak to me, so we put the translator between him and me and, at the end, we said hello. He barely looked at me but it happened anyway. The other times, even though they weren't all looking me in the eye, it wasn't awkward for me, as long as they answered me. Afterwards, there was one who asked me where my protective male was. The translator and my cameraman replied that we were a TV crew. He said that it was not normal for me to walk like this, that I was not allowed to be behind in the car because the cameraman was not my brother,nor my husband. I had to go up front. We complied and then we continued our journey. In these cases you have to say yes and walk away.

The plight of Afghan women particularly moved public opinion after the Taliban took power. The magazine “Elle” devoted a great deal to them in its latest issue: are we moving towards generations of sacrificed women?

We can already see that the opening speech does not translate into action since it is a bit of the hard line which is represented in the current government and which begins to apply Islamic law according to its will, that is to say say with restrictions for women. At the same time, they are not the same as twenty years ago, women can still go to university, separated from men certainly, in burqas and no longer in jeans and T-shirts as there is still. a few weeks. That was what was really disturbing, meeting for example a university professor who was hiding in her home and who kindly welcomed me to give me her very courageous testimony with her face uncovered. You can feel this fear in women and there is also a large part who decided to resist.There were a lot of protests when I was there, although they were suppressed, and more and more violently. But we feel that the context is not the same as it was twenty years ago and what makes me a little optimistic, nothing more eh, is that the international pressure is there and that the Taliban cannot be sidelined. 'get out of it if they lock themselves up. They need international help. Afghanistan is going through a terrible humanitarian crisis. I saw people who were starving to death, there is no money, the banks are closed, the country is no longer functioning and the Taliban are not arriving with boxes of dollars.it is that the international pressure is there and that the Taliban cannot get out of it if they lock themselves in. They need international help. Afghanistan is going through a terrible humanitarian crisis. I saw people who were starving to death, there is no money, the banks are closed, the country is no longer functioning and the Taliban are not arriving with boxes of dollars.it is that the international pressure is there and that the Taliban cannot get out of it if they lock themselves in. They need international help. Afghanistan is going through a terrible humanitarian crisis. I saw people who were starving to death, there is no money, the banks are closed, the country is no longer functioning and the Taliban are not arriving with boxes of dollars.

Humanitarian aid must be organized, that is the priority.

The second is to influence them by telling them that aid will also be conditional on their decision-making and that the situation of women is at the heart of the concerns of the international community.

I think we must continue to put pressure on them and discuss with them, show that we are monitoring the situation very closely.

Now, that does not mean that we will not live weeks, even months, where we will feel the Islamic law weighing very heavily on the condition of women.

I want to stay a little optimistic for the moment.

What do you feel when you leave a country at war or particularly unstable?

With a heavy heart thinking of all those who cannot leave this country?

In a country at war, we know that we may not come back and we lose friends too. In Syria, for example, I lost people I worked with, friends who were tortured to death by the regime. That, of course, we have in mind and we will never forget it. In Afghanistan, it's different. We are leaving with very strong testimonies, from people who have asked you for your help every day to try to leave the country and there is nothing we can do. We explain to them that we are not an ambassador, that we do not have planes, that we are just a journalist. That we are there to explain what is going on and that it is very important, but that we cannot give them a pass. You can feel this desperation in people's eyes. We leave with all these looks and requests for help,I still have people that I have met who contact me to ask me if their documents are progressing, if I can help them ... I try with the small means that I have and my network, but I understand that now departures are going to be harder and harder. I stay with these images and I tell myself that I have to go back and follow what is happening because it is also a means of exerting pressure. And that gives a little hope to all these people that I met and who deserve so much that we do not abandon them.I stay with these images and I tell myself that I have to go back and follow what is happening because it is also a means of exerting pressure. And that gives a little hope to all these people that I met and who deserve so much that we do not abandon them.I stay with these images and I tell myself that I have to go back and follow what is happening because it is also a means of exerting pressure. And that gives a little hope to all these people that I met and who deserve so much that we do not abandon them.

Do you plan to return to Afghanistan soon?

As soon as I can, but it's also my editorial staff that decides.

We have to wait and see what happens, how the Taliban manage their administration, how they settle down, see if it is the hard line that will really win until the end, if they continue to accept the international press and under what conditions… It is the expectation and I think that in some time yes, it will be necessary to return there.

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