The jurist and columnist Juan José López Burniol (Alcanar, 1945) is one of the most respected and widely read political analysts by the Catalan elite.
He was one of the editors of the controversial joint editorial in favor of the Statute and during the independence arreón of 2017 he was part of the small group that secretly met in Vitoria with the Lehendakari Iñigo Urkullu to prevent Carles Puigdemont from proclaiming independence
A decade after the start of the
process
, Catalonia is economically sunk and politically and socially divided. How and why does a prosperous society stand on the edge of the abyss? By the confluence of various factors. There is the historical one, that Catalonia has been and is a human community with a clear awareness of having a differentiated historical personality and the firm will to project this personality into the future through its self-government, understood as self-management of its own interests and self-control of its own resources. . Then there is the circumstantial factor, such as the emergence of populisms, in which the indignation of all those who complain, the majority, middle class, of an unfair distribution of the 2008 financial crisis and a growing increase in inequality. And finally, the human factor, with the error of some (the independentistas), by an overvaluation of themselves and a systematic denigration of the adversaries, who are turned into enemies. As well as the silence of the others (the non-independentistas) and the difficulty for people in Catalonia to say in public the same as they say in private. It is the silence of the cults that Victor Klemperer spoke of about German society. Were you one of the editors of the famous joint publishing house La dignidad de Cataluña, with which twelve Catalan newspapers alerted / pressured the Constitutional Court about the consequences of a sentence adverse to the new
Status
.
Given that it was the prelude to the
process
, do you regret it?
I am going to refer here for the first time to the genesis of this editorial as far as I am concerned.
My friend Rafael Nadal, then director of
El Periódico
, where I was writing at the time, informed me of the initiative and asked me to write a first draft - which would not be the only one to take into account - of the joint editorial.
So I did, I think I remember under the title "The never ending sentence" and I gave it to Nadal.
The definitive wording that was published in the newspapers includes a passage from my text.
I therefore assume my joint responsibility with the final version of the editorial.
Having said this, we must bear in mind that Catalanism as an awareness of being is as old and permanent as any other sense of permanence, but it reaffirmed itself as a cultural movement in the 19th century with the
Renaissance
, manifesting itself as a double objective: the defense of the language and the own culture and the regeneration of all Spain.
It was not until the disaster of 98, when Cuba was lost, when it became a political movement and demanded more self-government, without ever aspiring to independence, possibly considering it unattainable, as Santos Juliá said in the
Historia de las dos Españas
about Prat de la Riba.
Catalan regenerationism was very important.
I remember a phrase from a history professor whom I had great veneration for, who was Vicente Cacho, who said that deep down there were two regenerationisms in Spain, the one from Madrid, the backbone of the Free Institution of Education, and the Catalan.
This tradition was not exempt from the secessionist impulse, with Francesc Macià and Lluís Companys, and also with a Jordi Pujol who prepared the ground for his sons-in-law to complete independence ... We must understand that the deepest roots of the
procés
are much earlier to Pujol, a political figure of enormous magnitude.
Not understanding or not accepting this fact, minimizing it as if what happened had been a heat for the Catalan bourgeoisie, is the most frequent reason for misunderstanding the Catalan problem.
A problem that has conditioned Spanish life for over a hundred years.
In 1959, in the obituary that Antonio Tovar wrote of the poet Carles Riba, he tells us that it was thanks to "the formidable will of the people", together with "an admirable series of poets", as "the nineteenth century witnessed the resurgence of this language that the people had continued to speak. "
Therein lies the strength of Catalanism, in a popular impulse that precedes politicians.
And the
pujolismo
?
Wasn't it a decisive factor in the conversion to independence of an important part of Catalan society? Jordi Pujol converted regenerationist Catalanism into nationalism, without explicitly reaching the last consequences.
It is true that the change that it is promoting varies the political and social vision that exists in Catalonia, but without claiming independence, probably because it continued to be impossible.
Hence, the guidelines of his mandate were to promote the differentiated personality of Catalonia through its hallmarks as the language, using TV3 as an important factor.
The idea of the "
peix al cove
", assuming as many powers as possible to prevent Catalan affairs from being decided in Madrid, and finally his obsession, with a dialectic of constant clash with the rest of Spain, of never participating in the Central government.
It did not allow Miquel Roca or Josep Antoni Duran Lleida to reach ministers, as it aborted the possibility of Joan Rigol presiding over the Senate.
All with a future aspiration, well drawn in the phrase: "Today patience, tomorrow independence".
The Government of Sánchez considers the independence process buried, do you share the diagnosis?
Not at all.
Catalan nationalism, filled with outrages, is a romantic,
Herderian
nationalism
.
It is unavailable to discouragement.
That is why I think that in the next Catalan elections of 14-F the independentistas are going to win easily and can achieve a social majority.
So you don't see a solution to the Catalan problem?
In historical processes there are stages of atonement in which when things have not gone well, the consequences are assumed and, over time, the head of the well is raised to reach an agreement, which you could have reached much earlier and with most beneficial conditions for all.
I always say that we are in the inevitable peninsula.
This piece of land, which goes from the Pyrenees to Tarifa and from Finisterre to Cabo de Creus, and which can only be articulated as a federal state, in which in some matters the general interest of the individual continues to be imposed.
A federalism that Pasqual Maragall already defended until he came to power and made a pact with ERC without problems, as the PSC could do after 14-F.
Isn't federalism the alibi of every nationalist? Maragall opted for federalism as a suitable formula for the fit of Catalonia in Spain and conceived a new statute as the cornerstone of the system.
The idea was good, but it was poorly executed by leaving the drafting of the text to the initiative of a committee of the Catalan Parliament, turning it into an auction of radicalisms.
This meant that it was conceived as a reform of the Constitution and that Catalonia's relationship with Spain was articulated as a confederal link.
Then came the blunder of turning to the Constitutional Court for a text approved by both parliaments.
I, who have been president of the Constitutional Court of Andorra, know that its function should not be to amend laws passed in a referendum.
So, what exactly do you propose as a way out of the Catalan crisis?
An agreement is needed on the goals to be achieved through the necessary reform.
And the offer of the content of this reform should come from the central government.
It must be formalized at all costs, taking into account that inaction, far from solving the problem by drinking, will aggravate it to the limit.
And that proposal must be made on the basis that federal reform is impossible today.
So, we must find another way: a reform of the statute and the Lofca that covers these points: recognition of Catalonia as a nation, exclusive powers of the Generalitat in language, education and culture within the framework defined by the Constitution and the TC.
Setting a ceiling on the Catalan contribution to the Solidarity Fund and the establishment of a shared tax agency, the difference between being paid or paid by you.
Once these measures have been raised and agreed, the call for a referendum in Catalonia to approve the agreement.
He speaks as if the Generalitat shows a minimal sense of state and institutional loyalty.
As if he had respected the laws or the plurality that exists in Catalan society ... The objection he makes to me is very worthy of being taken into account.
But if the central government makes that offer that I specify and it is accepted, the law will have to be strictly adhered to.
The worst trace left by dictatorships is the belief that laws do not have to be followed.
It is also necessary to have and demand constitutional loyalty and to the agreements reached.
The alternative to the rule of law is civil strife, economic decline ... And serve the sentences?
Are you in favor of releasing separatist leaders?
Releasing the prisoners will not solve the problem, but it may help to calm the extreme polarization of Catalan society.
I am in favor of a pardon for reasons of general interest, in no case should an amnesty be given.
And the sooner the pardon occurs, the better.
Do you think that the
procés
, its policy of social division, confrontation and questioning of our democratic system, has jumped into Spanish politics?
Catalonia does not have enough force to become independent unilaterally, but it does have enough to destabilize all of Spain.
And that is what is happening, with the irruption into politics of the indignant and populists.
Spain is an anarchoid country in which the extremists are going to Podemos and Vox.
There we have Pablo Iglesias, who is a neo-communist and represents a radical leftism that connects with a sector of the PSOE, the
long-knight
current
that has always lived in tension with the Social Democrat.
For the first time since the restoration of democracy, a Government of Spain, or at least some of its most prominent members, calls into question our system of coexistence.
I will always repeat until I die that this country made a model transition, due to the fear and rejection of all Spaniards to repeat the barbarism of the Civil War, and it was done on the basis of oblivion.
But when Podemos arrives in public life, the Transition begins to be questioned, saying that it is Francoism brought up to date, pure continuity.
That is very dangerous.
In the government coalition, Podemos questions the "regime of 78" from the inside, while from the outside, parties like ERC or Bildu that give it support, have as their raison d'être to break the state.
It is a legitimate coalition, but it causes a weakness and instability of the Government, which is very counterproductive for the interests of Spain.
In addition to being inadmissible for the purposes of a State, which is its subsistence as such.
Would you have been in favor of a great PSOE-PP-CS coalition for the pandemic?
Before the April 2019 elections, I defended that Ciudadanos should agree with the PSOE.
Later I also insisted on the agreement of the PSOE and the Liberals, but everything went to gargle for Albert Rivera.
Now, with the political and economic crisis due to the pandemic, I believe that agreements between the major parties are essential.
If the current leaders had character and a long and deep view, there would be a coalition government to carry out the in-depth reforms and renewal of the institutions that Spain needs.
I cannot believe, or do not want, that the legislature continues with this level of tension in the political debate.
Another debate opened by the Government is the continuity of the Monarchy?
Those who attack the Monarchy do so to erode the vault key of our system and take on what they call the '78 regime. Some, like Podemos, to establish a republic with diffuse contours and uncertain borders.
The others, such as the nationalist parties, to weaken the State and see if this makes independence easier.
That said, there is no doubt that some events carried out by King Juan Carlos are a serious blow to the moral authority and the image of the Spanish Monarchy, which has rendered an extraordinary service to the country.
We must separate the personal aspects, the need for the emeritus King to render accounts in accordance with the law before the Tax administration and the courts, from the great work that the institution and the current King have provided and continues to provide for our democracy.
It was a mistake that Don Juan Carlos left Spain, he should return and reside here with all discretion, while the open procedures or those that can be opened are substantiated.
Finally, was a law necessary to regulate euthanasia? This matter cannot be regulated exclusively on the basis of individual rights, but serious limitations imposed for reasons of general interest must be taken into account, as well as risk, always latent in all types of societies, that it is misused.
Therefore, the legislation should be extremely guaranteeing, allowing it only in a series of clearly and rigidly defined cases.
And it must be based exclusively only on the will, which can be anticipated, of whoever wants to submit to it.
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