Ge Zhaoguang: Maintain a critical stance on reality,
Is what every individual writer should uphold
China News Weekly reporter/Li Jing
Published in the 958th issue of China News Weekly on August 3, 2020
"Mr. Xu's great historical works, I have always liked to read them." When Xu Zhuoyun published "Speaking China" in 2015, Ge Zhaoguang explained in the book.
In July this year, Xu Zhuoyun published "Xu Zhuoyun Says America". Although this time I'm talking about the great history of the United States, in Ge Zhaoguang's view, this still comes from Xu Zhuoyun's certain anxiety about the current world and China. "His thinking is in the United States, and his focus is on China."
Ge Zhaoguang, currently a distinguished professor of the Institute of Literature and History and Department of History of Fudan University, was born in 1950 and was the first batch of college students admitted to Peking University after the resumption of the college entrance examination in 1977. From "The History of Chinese Thought", "The History of Chinese Zen Thought-From the 6th Century to the 10th Century" to "Zhaizi China: Reconstructing Historical Discourses on "China"" "What is China: Territory, Nationality, Culture and History", testify In the past 40 years, Ge Zhaoguang has gradually become an international scholar. In 2009, Ge Zhaoguang was named the first "Princeton Global Scholar" of Princeton University.
Like Xu Zhuoyun, Ge Zhaoguang has also experienced disasters caused by historical turbulence. He said: "This is not a disaster on paper but a disaster of empathy." Studying history with this kind of experience and understanding the gap between the records of historical documents and the actual occurrence of historical facts also made him "understand history from the bottom of the eye, instead of just looking at the sky in the study."
On June 23, Ge Zhaoguang, who had just finished two lectures at the University of Tokyo, accepted an exclusive interview with China News Weekly.
"Dispersed" and "Locals"
China News Weekly: When was the first time you and Mr. Xu Zhuoyun met? Do you remember the situation? While you were a guest professor at Hong Kong Baptist University and City University of Hong Kong, Mr. Xu Zhuoyun also happened to be a chair professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. At that time, did you often meet?
Ge Zhaoguang: Actually, Mr. Xu Zhuoyun and I are not particularly acquainted, although I knew Mr. Xu’s name very early, probably in the mid-1980s. At that time, I knew from a friend's introduction that his "Ancient Chinese Social History" and "History of the Western Zhou Dynasty" were both outstanding academic works. Later, I read the Chinese version of these two books, which are very influential among scholars of our generation.
However, the first meeting with Mr. Xu was very late, probably in Taipei in the 1990s. I remember that time, I gave a speech in the lecture hall on the sixth floor of the Institute of History and Language. That speech was presided over by Mr. Xing Yitian. Halfway through the speech, I occasionally looked up and noticed that Mr. Xu was sitting in a wheelchair at the door of the last row of the lecture hall. After the speech was over, brother Wang Fansen took me to meet with Mr. Xu. This was the chance to say hello to him. This should be the first time I met. However, as you said, after 2000, because I have been a guest at the Hong Kong Baptist Church and City University five or six times, it happened that Mr. Xu was also in Hong Kong once, so I had the opportunity to meet. At that time, Professor Zheng Peikai of the Chinese Cultural Center of City University of Hong Kong often organized various activities, and those activities were always crowded with friends. I remember meeting several times on that occasion, but unfortunately, there were many people on that occasion, and we didn't talk much or deep.
The special opportunity is in 2014. That year, the Japanese and Chinese editions of my new book "What is China" were published in Tokyo and Hong Kong, and it happened that I visited the Harvard-Yenching Institute again. In April, Prof. Wang Dewei and Prof. Ollid organized a closed-door meeting called Unpacking China at the Fairbank China Center to discuss the topic of "China" and let me speak. I remember that there were dozens of people who came to participate at that time. In addition to the hosts Wang Dewei and Oulide and Professor Bao Bide from Harvard, Professor Mei Weiheng from the University of Pennsylvania, Du Maike and Professor Qiu Huifen from UBC also came. . Before the start of this meeting, Mr. Xu Zhuoyun sent us the first draft of his unfinished new book "Hua Xia Discourse", which is the "Speak China" published by the mainland, via email, so that we can all provide comments. On the day the meeting started, he gave us another 20 minutes of his views via skype. Perhaps, this is the reason why he asked Professor Wang Dewei to convey that he hoped that I would write a preface to his "China Discourse"? However, I don't dare to write the preface. I think he is the predecessor. How can I write the preface to the predecessor? Doesn't it become the old saying "Buddha's head has dung"? Therefore, in accordance with the rules of the Japanese academic circles, I wrote a "Commentary" for him as a later generation, attached to the Taiwan version of "China Discourse" and the mainland version of "Speaking China".
Perhaps because of this opportunity, since then, Mr. Xu and I have had a lot of e-mail exchanges. In 2019, Liang Wendao and I started planning the audio program "Global History from China" in "Looking at Ideals". Mr. Xu specially gave our program a titled "Revisiting the Past and Thinking of the Future with a Broad Vision" In the opening chapter, it talked about "China is a part of the world", "seeing global phenomena from the movement of ethnic groups" and "may people with aspirations start a career together", etc., I have great expectations for this program we planned, and even expressed willingness It is really a great encouragement for us to encourage many scholars to participate together.
China News Weekly: You have interpreted the book of Mr. Xu Zhuoyun, and Mr. Xu has also recommended the courses you planned. You can see your appreciation and support for each other. Are your views always similar? Is there a time to argue? What are your main differences? In Mr. Xu Zhuoyun's book, I always feel his nostalgia for the pastoral songs of the agricultural civilization era in Chinese history. Does the agricultural civilization entrust the impression of his homeland in his childhood?
Ge Zhaoguang: We all admire Mr. Xu Zhuoyun's research. To be honest, I can only use one sentence to say that it has benefited a lot. Mr. Xu Zhuoyun and I have common positions, ideas and concepts on many academic issues. There is no problem with this point. Otherwise, I would not write the "Explanation" of the "China Discourse". In particular, I admire his grand vision and clear presentation very much. As everyone knows, Mr. Xu has promoted the interactive integration of history and social sciences over the years, and has also done in-depth research on pre-Qin history. However, I personally want to pay special attention to his recent books such as "Eternal Rivers", "Me and Others" and "China Discourse". These are the history books written by academics to put down their bodies and write for general readers. However, this is not only to write the great history fluently and clearly, but also to have great judgments in the great history, so I say that people who are not knowledgeable and masters cannot make big judgments. You have the deepest experience in such great historical works as Mr. Xu Yes, it is Mr. Xu Zhuoyun's big judgment of "cutting off crowds." Nowadays, historical knowledge is distorted, obscured, and rewritten for various reasons. It is especially necessary for truly professional scholars to use methods that are not "joking" or "distorting criticism" to popularize and clean up the public. Look at Mr. Xu’s books, which explain the historical process of China, the internal and external aspects of China, the formation and understanding of China, these major issues so clearly, it is really not easy. Think about it, as a historian, is it important that those papers and works that can be converted into a certain "number" are important, or that it is important for the public to obtain a truly correct historical understanding?
Of course, Mr. Xu Zhuoyun and I have some frank differences in our views on history, especially Chinese history. However, I think this is inevitable. It is not only because Mr. Xu is 20 years older than me, it is two generations. Each generation has its own understanding of the other. More importantly, when Mr. Xu and I observe history, we always There are some differences in "position" and "angle". The first thing I think of is the difference between "people in the mountains" and "people outside the mountains". You must have read this poem by Su Dongpo: "I don't know the true face of Mount Lu, but we are in this mountain." It may be said that we in the mountains have a cordial experience of historical China, but we lack the perspective to jump out. There are places that cannot be seen clearly; however, "Looking at ridges on the sides and peaks, with different heights and different distances", this may also be applicable. Mr. Xu, who is outside the mountain, is not so kind to the real Chinese experience. You may only see one side. Therefore, as you said, it is inevitable that there is excessive attachment and distant sympathy for traditional Chinese history and culture. Secondly, on the other hand, as for the "other" of China, such as Europe, America or the West, our evaluation also differs between "close distance" and "long distance".
The experience and experience is very peculiar. It often affects your rationality and judgment. I think this publication of Mr. Xu's talk about the United States is very exciting. Having been in the United States for decades, Mr. Xu has many close insights and insights. However, when we watch from a distance, we also have slightly different opinions, because as a symbol of cultural understanding, or as a context in which we are in it, our respective judgments are really different. Living in the United States or an over-modern city, you say that Mr. Xu has feelings for the "old age" of the past, but this is not just a matter of "pastoral pastoral". Tao Yuanming also sang pastoral pastoral in the Middle Ages. For me, who was born in China, was born in Sri Lanka and grew up in Sri Lanka, “I/China” is my reality, while for Mr. Xu who went to the United States, “Other/America” is his reality. Context. Keeping a critical stand on reality is something that every writer should uphold. What I think of again is the difference between the "dispersed" and the "local". You know that the word "identity" is very important. As a Chinese living in the United States, as a minority group that often feels depressed in the United States, Mr. Xu will of course care very much, and even very sensitive that the kind of Chinese in the minds of Americans is not "Fu Manchu." It is the concept of "Chen Charlie", which is normal. We Chinese living in China may not have such feelings and experiences. However, it is precisely because of this experience and feeling that Mr. Xu talks about "China" in a different way.
You know, Mr. Wang Gungwu just won the fourth "Tang Award", he and Mr. Xu are both great scholars. He is also of Chinese descent living outside of mainland China, and he is also standing outside China to talk about the world and China. Therefore, he made up for a short board in the understanding of "China" in the world academic circles, and his research is very important for us to understand China in many ways. However, when I commented on his "Wang Gungwu Talks about World History", I also said that because he is outside the political system and ideology of China in reality, Mr. Wang does not have the "political identity" of scholars in mainland China. The entanglement and anxiety between "cultural identity" and "cultural identity" can easily separate political systems and cultural values.
I think Mr. Xu is the same. Sometimes there is indeed an "idealistic kind imagination", which is probably different from ours. In fact, when I wrote "Commentary" for Mr. Xu's "China Discourse", I euphemistically expressed some different opinions about Chinese history. He also saw it and expressed his understanding of what I meant. I know that some of Mr. Xu's views on history are actually derived from some of his anxiety about the current world and China. So I understand it this way, “This is the real concern and sense of worry of conscientious historians. Mr. Xu is undoubtedly deeply aware of the stimulation of the real world. What he is worried about is the existence and change (Becoming) in the world civilization. In this tide, how can China manage itself? Modern civilization in the West itself has become aging. How can (China) strive to reorganize the original community under the condition of double loss." Everyone can pay attention to why this publication of "Xu Zhuoyun Says America" talked about the United States for a long time, and the last section returns to "Where is China going". Obviously, his thinking background is in the United States, and his focus is on China. , "Use the American phenomenon to compare with China's situation as a warning to China." But what exactly will China do? I also noticed another sentence of his, that is, "How to add, subtract, multiply and divide between all kinds of pros and cons is really confusing." This feeling is really meaningful.
China News Weekly: Mr. Xu Zhuoyun's experience during the War of Resistance against Japan when he was young has profoundly affected him. Did he mention that experience to you? Is that experience an important reason why Mr. Xu Zhuoyun's works always carry the feelings of family and country? In his books, he often feels his grief for the fate of modern China and his tracing of the glory of the empire in history. Do you think this feeling will affect his views and the value of his thoughts?
Ge Zhaoguang: There is no doubt that Mr. Xu's memories of his family and country life experience, especially the memories of the displacement during the "World War II", are very moving. I have no fate to hear him talk about this history with my own ears. However, I have seen "Family, State, and World Affairs-A Review of Academician Xu Zhuoyun's Life" published in Taipei and "Xu Zhuoyun's Talks" published by Guangxi Normal University Press in China. Especially the former, a huge book. I always feel that their generation, including Mr. Yu Yingshi, Mr. Wang Gungwu, Mr. He Zhaowu, etc. whom I have met, the times when their families were in trouble, were all the memories of their youth, deep memories, and such memories will accompany their lives. . You are right, this is indeed one of the sources of their family and country feelings. They are all true patriots. However, I also believe that for a historian, although this kind of emotion is very important, he may not regard this kind of emotion as the only yardstick and only starting point for historical judgment, so that the rationality of historical research and the sensibility of family and country feelings Entangled, if so, our view of history can easily return to a single nationalism.
I feel that when facing history, whether it is Mr. Xu Zhuoyun, Mr. Wang Gungwu, or Mr. Yu Yingshi, they are still dominated by rational, professional, and academic judgments. Therefore, Mr. Xu once mentioned in his memoirs, After the age of fifty, he has gradually "put aside the narrow concept of nationality. This process of (abandoning) is not easy and uncomfortable. He has to fight with himself in his head." Although the feelings of family and country will unconsciously have some influence and some revelation, after all, the academic rationality of historians is still the mainstream.
Chinese Studies in Foreign Countries
China News Weekly: You yourself are the first batch of college students after the resumption of the college entrance examination, and you have also experienced a turbulent era. Has the special experience of your unique era affected your thinking and academic research? For example, although Xu Zhuoyun's writing is a great history, he pays great attention to the people under the country. Your own research does not seem to be confined to traditional historical research methods. For example, you think our "historical memory" is the history screened out by the "optimization method", and those "unpromising, backward, and disappearing thoughts" have been reduced. .
Ge Zhaoguang: To be honest, our generation of scholars are now in their 70s. Most of us have experienced the "Cultural Revolution" and going to the countryside. These life experiences are of great significance to our re-understanding of history. First of all, we will experience the disasters caused by historical turbulence. This is not a disaster on paper but a disaster of empathy; second, we will also understand history from the bottom of the eye, instead of just looking at the sky in the study, turning living history into Abstract text; again, we also understand the gap between the records of historical documents and the actual occurrence of historical facts, and we can particularly appreciate the complexity of history and society.
From the perspective of academic history, scholars of our generation have also benefited from the influence of our predecessors in two ways. On the one hand, it is vertical. From Liang Qichao to Hu Shi, from Wang Guowei to Chen Yinke in the late Qing Dynasty and the Republic of China, because they were in a critical period of transition from tradition to modernity, they suddenly changed Chinese academics. In an era of great changes unseen in two thousand years, they re-observed Chinese traditions, re-evaluated history and traditions amidst major conceptual changes, and re-understood the history of China and the four descents in the opportunity of great historical discovery. , Put forward a lot of new insights, new problems, so that we are still on their extension line. I greeted them again and again in the book "Remaining Sounds" for this reason. On the other hand, it is horizontal, which is the influence of overseas academic circles. Because we entered the academic world after the reform and opening up, the overseas Chinese studies that were gradually able to enter have given us a lot of stimulation, including Chinese scholars such as Yang Liansheng, Yu Yingshi, He Bingdi, Lin Yusheng, and Mr. Xu Zhuoyun. In fact, they not only brought us the problem awareness, research methods and observation angles of overseas Chinese studies, but also let us know that they have a group of scholars, although they are all Chinese, but from that position, they observe China and interact with us. Where is the difference?
China News Weekly: You once said that although Chinese studies in foreign countries are called "Chinese studies", they are still "foreign studies" in essence. Does Mr. Xu Zhuoyun's research count as "foreign studies" as you call it?
Ge Zhaoguang: I did say that overseas Chinese studies are essentially foreign studies, but this sentence was later misunderstood by many people. In fact, calling it overseas Chinese studies is not derogatory, it is precisely my praise for overseas Chinese studies. why? Because if the "China" they study is the same as the "China" we study, their consciousness and motivation are the same as ours, and their discourse style is the same as our discourse style, then we can learn from overseas Chinese studies What did you learn? It is because they are different that they are important. They study the problem consciousness behind China, the comparative background and the method path, which inspire us. Perhaps this is related to the fact that they have to look at themselves through the "other" of China, redraw the world history puzzle through a different tradition, and ease their anxiety about their own cultural traditions through the combing of different cultures. However, it should be said that Mr. Xu Zhuoyun and these scholars are different. They are not purely overseas Chinese studies. This is related to their "position" and their "background" in understanding China.
What is "location"? This is a statement I have recently pondered. It is the research on Chinese history and culture at home and abroad. If the researchers are roughly divided into three parts, namely, Chinese scholars, overseas Chinese scholars, and European, American and Japanese scholars (this is of course very rough or even Arbitrary classification), then, we should look at the four indicators of these researchers, namely "position", "comparative background", "research method" and "concerns". The research fields of these three major scholars generally have similarities. They are all "China" in history, and there are many similarities in research approaches. However, due to differences in the four indicators of location, background, methods, and problems, there will be some subtle differences between the three types of academic groups: Chinese scholars, overseas Chinese scholars, and European, American and Japanese scholars. Of course, I solemnly state once again that this is only an extremely simplistic analysis and classification. In fact, the situation is much more complicated.
From the perspective of "location", our scholars in mainland China are a little different from overseas scholars, whether they are overseas Chinese scholars or European, American and Japanese scholars. This is what I just mentioned as "people in the mountains" and " Outside the mountain". When studying China in China, studying China in Japan, studying China in Europe and America, and studying China in Southeast Asia, different positions will definitely bring about different perspectives. From the "comparative background", you know Goethe's old saying, "If you know one, you know nothing." The understanding of China must have a background. Our feelings, feelings and experience about historical China and the background of understanding China in reality may be different from those of overseas Chinese scholars. Overseas Chinese scholars used to observe the background of China, that is, to compare the background. Some people are backed by Southeast Asia, some are backed by Europe, and some are compared with the world behind them, which may be different. Even overseas Chinese scholars may be different from pure European, American and Japanese scholars. After all, they have a certain sense of connection with history and reality in China. However, European scholars may have European historical knowledge as a comparative background, and Japanese scholars may have Japanese historical knowledge as a comparative background. Therefore, everyone may have a subtle difference in certain historical judgments. From the perspective of "research methods", although it seems that the East China Sea and the West China Sea are the same, the common methods of international humanities should not be separated from each other. However, from the perspective of the "caring problem", it may be quite different.
Why do we care about these issues and not those issues? Behind it is our own consideration that Chinese scholars are in it. Although overseas Chinese scholars may be different from us, they have the kind of care and emotion that cannot be parted from China. Japanese scholars may be different. However, if you divide it carefully, overseas Chinese scholars have different positions and backgrounds, and there will be some differences in the issues of concern. Therefore, if you look at Mr. Xu Zhuoyun with the four indicators of location, care, method, and problem, he has similarities and differences with us. Using these four indicators, looking at the China studies of overseas Chinese scholars like Mr. Xu and the China studies of Europe, America and Japan, we can also find that they are different.
Even though the same Chinese scholars, Wang Gungwu in Singapore and Xu Zhuoyun in the United States, two seniors of the same age, because of different locations, different backgrounds, and different problems, one in Southeast Asia focuses on China through a discrete and marginal perspective. In the United States, when discussing China through a comparison between East and West, there may be subtle differences in research orientation and value judgment. Of course, there is no doubt that they are all the most outstanding scholars. I also feel that, as you asked, Mr. Xu “frequently feels his grief for the fate of modern China and his tracing of the glory of the empire in history. Does this feeling affect his views”? It can also be asked whether Mr. Wang Gungwu often feels the situation of overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia and their expectations of China. Does it also affect his views?
China News Weekly: We often feel that the problems we encounter and the plight of the world today can be answered in history to some extent. Based on your many years of research on the history of Chinese thought, do you think that the internal and external concepts in traditional Chinese thought have affected China's internal governance and China's international posture?
Ge Zhaoguang: I certainly agree with what you said, "The internal and external concepts in traditional Chinese thought have affected China's internal governance and China's international posture." The influence of history on the present is really like a gene, copying or repeating certain values, thoughts and logic, but to be honest, the recurrence of genes in later generations is also affected by the surrounding environment and cannot be generalized. For historians, although they are trying to answer current questions through research on the past, we cannot simply use historical experience as a remedy for practical problems. I think the term "historical experience", on the one hand, shows that tracing history is beneficial, but on the other hand, it also shows that experience is only experience, experience is not omnipotent, and history and reality are not one-to-one correspondence. It’s best to remember the idiom "carving a boat for a sword". The most important element of history is change. The child said in Sichuan, the dead are like a swan. Historical research cannot directly provide answers or solutions to reality. It is just a refreshing thinking. Resources.
China News Weekly, Issue 28, 2020
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