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Parcours des Mondes, the largest exhibition of primitive arts takes place from 10 to 15 September in 26 galleries in the Saint-Germain-des-Près district in Paris. © Siegfried Forster / RFI

It is the world's largest event in the field of extra-European ancient arts and admission is free. African arts are at the heart of the Parcours des mondes. It has just opened its doors until September 15th, in 65 galleries of the Saint-Germain-des-Près district, in Paris. Interview with the general manager Pierre Moos on the state of the market and his point of view on the restitution of works of African art in France to Africa: " we will have surprises ".

RFI: The 2019 edition of the Parcours des mondes, what does it teach us about the situation of the ancient arts today?

Pierre Moos: The Parcours des mondes covers Africa, Oceania, Asia and then archeology ... You have 65 galleries, the largest in the world, who are here to offer an extremely fun walk that allows to visit 65 small "museums". Merchants from around the world sometimes keep coins for several years to be able to present them here to the public. And if you are interested, you can buy the pieces presented, which is not usual in a museum ... [laughs]

The report of Felwine Sarr and Bénédicte Savoy on the restitution of the African cultural heritage, published in November 2018, after the speech of the French president Emmanuel Macron in Ouagadougou, in November 2017, what has changed for the market of the African art?

I think there was a panic at the time of President Macron's speech in Ouagadougou. People have said, we will make everything [in France] to Africa. Time has passed and I think that President Macron and the people around him have understood that there is a kind of impossibility. Legally, nothing is impossible. We can change the texts, but physically and intellectually, this poses problems. Today, according to what we know, 75% of African pieces on the market or in museums have been manufactured for sale. How can I return coins that have been purchased? It seems difficult to me. The report of Felwine Sarr and Bénédicte Savoy did not find French expeditions charged to bring back parts of Africa in France. This is where we come to a dead end.

What do you think is the interest of African countries for these refunds?

Apart from some intellectuals in Africa, there is not a great local interest in these plays. The interest of refunds has appeared in recent years, when some Africans have found that African coins have been sold for several million euros or dollars. Where are the parts? They are everywhere, except in Africa, because at the time it did not interest them. Masks or sculptures were practically no longer used. It was like today when we go to the Champ-de-Mars in Paris where we sell small Eiffel towers. They are produced and sold. At one time, since the 1920s and 1930s, Africans made and sold coins to make money. And when a village was selling the so-called "centerpiece", there were already two or three in the process of manufacturing that replaced it. So today, for me [the discussion of restitution], it's a lure.

Gélédé mask, Oyo region, at the Africa Gallery, at the Parcours des Mondes 2019. © Siegfried Forster / RFI

There are some pieces that have been used, it's true. These pieces, little by little, were sold. It must not be forgotten that Islam has penetrated Africa. And Islam did not admit human representation. People who became - voluntarily or not - Muslims destroyed the pieces, because the masks represented a human figure or a sculpture represented the body of a man or a woman. There was a lot of destruction. And contrary to what we think, it was not the French, nor the English, nor the Germans, nor the Belgians who destroyed the pieces, but often it was the populations converted to Islam who did not want more of these pieces and who destroyed them. So, it's very complicated finally.

In total, the report of Sarr and Savoy had recorded at the Quai Branly museum, for example, 3 157 pieces from Benin. Recently, the Minister of Culture, Frank Riester, announced the return of 26 Beninese objects, looted in the bag of the Palace of the Kings of Abomey by French colonial troops in 1892.

The Minister of Culture seemed to say that we will return the coins to Benin. Okay, we need to change the texts, the laws, that will be done. But even there ... I spoke with specialists who told me that the pieces of Benin that are in France do not belong to Benin, they belong to Nigeria, because it concerned the Yorubas. At the time, in the years 1880 to 1905, the Beninois were the largest slavers. And they had the Yorubas as slaves. In the end, Benin coins were made by the Yorubas. Today, the Yorubas are [predominantly] in Nigeria. [Number of Yoruba people in Africa, according to estimates: Nigeria: 41.6 million, Benin: 1.7 million, Ghana: 469,000, Ivory Coast: 120,000 ..., note]. So, it's very complicated. And if we really want to dig, we'll have surprises.

Artkhade, a French site specializing in the ancient arts of Africa, spoke in its 2019 report of a " slight decline " in relation to sales volumes and a fall in prices. Is this a consequence of the debate around restitution?

This has nothing to do with. Markets, in art in general, are difficult to control. There are economic issues, fashion, it's quite complicated. There is no price decline. There is a selection that is made. I see it every day now, collectors know what they are buying. Collectors do not buy coins to make money. It's extremely rare that someone will tell himself that he will buy a coin for 50,000 euros and will sell it for 200,000.

The report on restitution also called for a new relationship with Africa. Have you noticed a change?

Everyone is in favor of improving relationships. I talk to collectors every day. They would be happy to lend coins, glad to help build museums. The problem: if you lend coins to Africa, collectors have very little chance of seeing them back for months or years, because there is no organization there.

Tumbwe, statue, DRC, exhibited at the Dulon Gallery at Parcours des Mondes 2019. © Siegfried Forster / RFI

Parcours des mondes, international exhibition of primitive arts, Asian arts and archeology, from September 10 to 15, in Paris.

► See also : Restitution of works of art in Benin: France goes a step further , rfi, 4/7/2019

To listen also : On the traces of slavery in Benin, rfi, 23/4/2017